<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>On 19 Dec 2014, at 18:14, steve bosworth <<a href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com">stevebosworth@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">
J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The 10'000 is of course arbitrary since it is
not designed for any particular society. Each society should pick a number that
suits its needs.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Please formulate the method by which any
society could “pick” this number without being arbitrary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>APR offers one answer to this question.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Can you think of a better answer?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The decision making body (e.g. a parliament) estimates what would be a suitable number that does not let too many groupings in and leaves no such groupings out that may well win a seat. It would be good to allow also a number of such groupings in that may win seats in some future elections, even if they may not get any seats this time. After one or few first elections the number may be adjusted. The result is not arbitrary, but based on the characteristics of the society in question.</div><div> </div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I see this as too vague to allow our
discussion to progress.<br></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can make the definition simpler: "proper party" = "traditional party". This definition works in all countries that I could quickly think.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">
J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since the outcome of the primary has a
meaningful impact on the outcome of the whole election, this does not solve my
problem. Vote buyers, coercers etc. may still have an interest to influence the
outcome of the primary.<br>
> <o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would be hard to predict this impact
because voters can reverse all expectations by secretly voting differently in
the general election.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If so, do you have
any reason to believe that APR would be more vulnerable to such corruption than
other system?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Systems that do not support secret voting tend to be vulnerable to vote buyers and coercers. In APR the general election does not cancel all the (important and worth influencing) decisions made in the primary (e.g. the decision on which associations are allowed to participate).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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J: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>For example, methods that allow only
voting of one candidate are easier to understand.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Does the fact that APR allows citizens to
choose this simplicity rather than being forced into it provide a valid
argument against APR in your view?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. The system is still complex, although it would have one rather simple branch too.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I'm not proposing any alternative systems,
just discussing the properties of APR, and if those properties could be improved.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unfortunately, you have not yet defined the
value you have in mind that would determine what would constitute an “improvement”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Can you do this now?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, since there are hundreds of possibilities on what kind of improvements could be made to a voting system.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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J: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And a very difficult to understand
system to all.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Please explain or name the parts of APR that
you do not understand, or you believe ordinary citizens would find hard to
understand.</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Someone already wrote on this list that if it takes days to make the experts on this list understand the system, then APR must be quite difficult to understand to the regular voters.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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J: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I see us as experts, discussing the
properties of APR. The decisions will be made by the societies (whose members
also we might be) that may take different methods into use. Maybe we can help
them in their decision making by providing good methods, and good explanations
on how they work.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course, I agree with this aim.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, I do not see how our dialogue can
make any further progress until you find yourself able to define what you mean
by “good methods”, what constitutes “improvements”, or are able to describe the
practical system that would also be your “ideal”.</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You can take my comments one by one, and estimate if the arguments that I give are in your opinion on the right path towards a good method.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font></div></blockquote><style><!--
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--></style><div>Juho</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></body></html>