<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>On 14 Dec 2014, at 17:23, steve bosworth <<a href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com">stevebosworth@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J: I think I already mentioned some. One could for example require a new
grouping to collect 10000 names of supporters. If it does so, it will get the
right to nominate a list of candidtes. APR has two phases, first to get to the
primary (or maybe anyone could nominate any number of candidtes??) and then to
the actual election. The approach that I mentioned above would be simpler (and
simplicity may nean efficiency).<o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Why 10,000? Would the central electoral
commission collect or coordinate these applications.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Would all such nominations appear on all
general election ballots? Would such a “grouping” have any other official functions?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Would such groupings have equally or more
advantages than APR’s associations as again listed later in this post?<br></font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The number should be large enough so that there will not be too many groupings, and small enough to allow many enough to run. The collected supporter lists would be given to the central electoral commission. In elections with numerous candidates I would favour "blank" ballots that do not list the candidate names at all (one could write candidate numbers in the ballot instead). The grouping would exist only to nominate a list of candidates in the election (maybe becomes a proper party if it gets some seats). The newly formed groupings would be treated in the election exactly the same way as the old well established parties.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But can you not outline the “ideal” system
towards which you are working?<br></font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't have any ready made "ideal" system that I would promote. I may have various improvement proposals for different societies with different background, existing method and preferences. And also improvement proposals for different theoretical system proposals (generic or society specific).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:
Without you exactly explaining a method you have in mind, we cannot say whether
it is or is not arbitrary.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No specific method in my mind. But for example a basic closed list, with no cutoffs, and proportionality counted at top level, and that allows also small groupings to participate in the election (e.g. after collecting supporter names), would be proportional and not in any arbitrary way, and would allow also small groupings to win seats.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Any APR citizen who is bribed or coerced to seem
to reveal preferences as a result of the Primary, can easily vote secretly for
completely different preferences in the general election, i.e. they have not
reveal their true preferences in the Primary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Thus, their general election vote is secret.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but to my understanding also the primary has influence on the outcome of the election as a whole.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No, APR makes it possible to the
voters to prove how they voted. They could prove that e.g. by showing their
association specific ballot paper to other people.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<o:p></o:p></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I see why you mistakenly believed that
APR does not meet this criterion?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Like
all other secret voting systems, an APR elector can only complete his ballot by
himself at his local polling station and leave that secret ballot in the box at
that station, i.e. unseen by anyone else until it is officially counted by the
agents of the electoral commission. Thus, like all other secret voting systems,
it would be impossible for him to reveal how he had voted except by choosing
verbally to report this to someone else. </font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To my understanding voting in the primary is not secret.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">This could
be achieved as follows:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Firstly, as a
result of the Primary, the central electoral commission would have a list of
all registered voters in the country.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>This list would include both the residence address of each voter and the
“association” in which each is an elector (i.e. the association which will also
produce its tailor made general election ballot for its elector).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Before the general election, the commission
would ensure that each district’s electoral administration had also received
all the different ballot papers for each of its residents who have become
official electors for associations other than the geographically defined one in
which they reside as a result of their participation in the Primary.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Thus, on general election day, each resident
citizen would receive their own association’s blank ballot paper to complete in
the secrecy provided by their local district’s polling station.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Also here it seems that the primary is far from secret. The actual election day voting could be secret, maybe with some extra effort, if the voters can freely deviate in whatever way from whatever limitations their association specific ballot sets on them.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Does this solve the secrecy problem for you?</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think the primary is still not secret, and it will influence the outcome of the election, e.g. by allowing or not allowing some associations to take part in the actual election.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In contrast to APR’s Primary, that “100000 comment”
would seem to make it more difficult and less proportionate for establishing
new parties.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you feel that it is too difficult to establish new parties with some required number (of collected supporter names), then you should lower that number. The number should be low enough so that it is not a too difficult task to collect the required number of names to any grouping that may have sufficient support to win one seat.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yes, there are many design decisions to make.
One very typical one is simplicity vs. complexity with some added features.
Simplicity makes the system easy to understand and use to regular voters and
thereby improves the democratic process.<br>
> <o:p></o:p></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Yes, simplicity is very important. Please
remember that APR allows a citizen simply to vote for one candidate if they see
its other options as too complex.</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">How would
the system you have in mind be simpler?</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Most methods that are in use today seem simpler than APR.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">You have not yet described your preferred system in enough detail for me
to see that it is any simpler than APR.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't have any such system that I would propose as "preferred to APR" (only some comments on the details of APR).</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">For example, how is your “geographic proportionality” to be achieved
without the complicated and somewhat arbitrary work of “boundary commissions“ that
may produce “safe-seats”, sometimes by “gerrymandering?</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Your comments seem to refer to the US style single seat districts and district formation process. Geographic proportionality (more or less detailed) can be achieved also by other means, e.g. by using large permanent multiwinner districts.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">Also, your above “10000” proposal is not sufficiently
detailed to be clear.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I explained it more above. Ask for further details if it is still unclear.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think you can read all my comments
either as doubts about if the design decisions are the best possible, or as
more neutral questions wondering if the system could still be improved, or as
questions to you on what kind of system you really want, and how those needs
could best be met.</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S: Yes,
but I have not yet understood any of these as exposing a flaw.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Correct me if I am mistaken.<br></font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have not noticed any "flaws" in the sense that it would have something obviously wrong. Many of its design details can be disussed in the sense that method developers and societies may have different preferences.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If voters cannot change the district
that they vote in, it is possible that they do not trust any of the candidates
of that district, but they could trust candidates of some other district. In my
previous mail I explained how voters might be able to change their district. …</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S: <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Would they have firstly to move house to the
other district?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If so, this would not be
practically possible for most people, and certainly more difficult than
relevantly participating in APR’s Primary to achieve the same result.</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think I said "either or".</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">J:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>… In addition it is possible to develop
systems that both implement geographical proportionality and allow voters to
vote candidates of other districts (such systems are however probably unusual).
I don't want to deny voters this option, but I might opt not to support it in
many practical systems since it does not add very much, …<o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S: If you
“deny voters this option”, you do not know how “much” it would “add” or
subtract.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It least we know that without
this option you would be denying equality of respect to some of your fellow
citizens and this violates a fundamental principle of democracy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How would you justify this violation?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course, if you are really a “traditionalist”,
you might see this as a “violation” of someone else’s ideology, not yours.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>What do you think?</font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn't see any other violations than not letting voter of district A vote for candidates of district B. I don't see how this violates "equality of respect" or "a fundamental principle of democracy".</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">S: Other
than your desire to conform to a “tradition” in your country, I do not think you
have explained any other “reason” for retaining your so-called “geographical
proportionality”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Please correct me if I
am mistaken.<br></font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I don't have any specific "desire" to conform to tradition. I have tried to explain the reasons why many systems today use geographical proportionality. The most obvious ones are the interest to guarantee proportional representation to each region, and to avoid bias towards favouring the most central areas/cities.<br><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000">
J: I think I have commented on all points at some level. At some points I have
given general answers to cover numerous points. Please indicate if there are
some remaining key questions left.<o:p></o:p></font></span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Please see my above questions as well as the
ones relating to the following claimed advantages of APR.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, since I already asked about these in
our 7<sup>th</sup> dialogue, perhaps you would prefer to delay your detailed
responses to these questions in order to give you time to collect your
thoughts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If so, please let me know and
I will look forward to a continuation of our dialogue at a later date.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;"></span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you have some specific questions or points where you need comments, you should point them out to me.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><font color="#000000">1)<span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Unlikely your
preferred system, the fact that APR allows each citizen to guarantee that their
own vote will continue mathematically to count in the assembly through the
weighted vote of their most favoured rep would seem maximally to encourage all
citizens to participate politically.</span></font></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div>I don't have any "preferred system". Many systems do guarantee approximate proportional representation. APR introduces some additional exaxt mathematical nature to this. I don't think most voters require exact mathematics but an overall understanding that the system is fair.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">2)<span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"></span><span style="font-size: 7pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"></span>Also, APR would probably
provide more attractive candidates and thus a closer ideological identity
between each citizen and his rep. </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US">APR’s associational structure
would seem to assist, on average, the development of such more intense
personal, ideological and mutual bonds than the more defuse and vague relations
between the agendas of each elector and the representatives elected by other
systems, including yours. </span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div>The idea that voters may decide which associations are allowed to participate in the actual election may be popular. I'm however not convinced that it would also technically make some stronger bonds between the voters and the parties (i.e. other reasons than the exitement of an additional round). The added complexity may also make some voters less interested.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 1em 0cm;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US">The evolution of these closer relationships would grow
partly as a result of the time between the two elections. Firstly, the
“bottom-up” Primary might prompt more electors to start to familiarize
themselves with the existing members and other potential candidates of their
preferred organizations. Thus, each APR representative is more likely to have
been known and explicitly favoured by his electors at least several months
before the general election. Consequently, the ideological fit between each set
of APR’s associations, electors, and representatives is likely to be much
closer than that between each set of parties, districts, electors, and
representatives in other systems.</span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div>The length of the process could be interesting to some voters and uninteresting to some. One must assume that part of the voters are on the edge of whether to vote or not. Most societies try to make as many voters vote as possible. Therefore a simple and effortless voting process is often good.</div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">3)<span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"></span><span style="font-size: 7pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US"></span>APR’s
Primary discovers which voluntary organizations should be officially recognized
to have a proportionate extra political status and electoral function. The
recognition of these associations would provide an additional democratic
channel for more enthusiastic participation in the political process both by
these associations and their electors. This recognition also gives each
association and its elected rep(s) an opportunity to plan and to focus their
combined resources more efficiently to help shape the binding decisions taken
by the state. Thus, </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">representation
is made more efficient by also being supported by the activities of each
citizen’s preferred and officially energized association; </span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div>The mentioned alternative of collecting name lists of supporters puts the burden of determining the groupings that will participate the election to the groups themselves. APR puts that burden on the voters. Some voters would like this, some maybe not (because of the need to participate more). Each society should pick the approach that suits them best.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">4)<span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"></span><span style="font-size: 7pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US"></span>Rational
political thinking by the body politic is also likely to be assisted by the
important additional knowledge discovered by the Primary. It would more
reliably discover the degree to which each previously well known, less know,
and unknown ideology, party, interest group, or club is, or is not, relevant to
the real concerns of the people. This knowledge would enable all citizens,
associations, potential candidates, and representatives more efficiently to
plan how each can help to shape the laws.</span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div>Representation of multiple groups is often considered to be a good thing. Also other techniques than APR exist.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">5)<span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"></span><span style="font-size: 7pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US"></span>Because
APR’s ‘associations’ would have some communication and mobilization resources
that are entirely independent of celebrity, the richest sections of society,
and the mass media, this would probably</span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">
help reduce the relative power of these sometimes anti-democratic forces in
determining how people vote. This is because many citizens could more firmly,
securely, and independently use the following opportunity provided by APR: to
see their favoured association and its representatives as providing an
essential part of the best way to promote and protect their own abiding
interests and values.<font face="Times New Roman">
</font></span></font></p></span></div></blockquote><div>Same answer as to the previous point.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><p style="margin: 1em 0cm; text-indent: -18pt;" class="ecxmsolistparagraph"><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 16pt;">6)</span><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 16pt;"><span style="font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 16pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;" lang="EN-US"></span>Moreover, a legislative assembly composed o<span style="color: black;">f such different clashing, yet trusted and well focused
reps would seem more likely to provide an optimal debating and negotiating
chamber for the production of laws based on evidence and rational thought
(please see the definition of “reason” at the end of the previous post). This
is because it would more accurately reflect the real variety and intensity of
people’s concerns. If so, this assembly would also be better able to respond to
the imperative to form a working majority in the assembly in order to produce
wise legislative solutions to problems, i.e. solutions also agreeable to a
majority of the people. The fact that each APR representative, on average, is
more likely to be focused and trusted by his or her electors would seem better
to enable them also to arrive at any necessary compromises between the
contending parties and representatives to achieve their common ends.</span></span></font></font><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"></span></p></span></div></blockquote><div>Same answer also here.</div><div><br></div>Juho<blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240); font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">
</font></span> </span></div>
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