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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>“Most non-conservative are intelligent enough to see that Gore and Bush are equally bad from their point of view.”<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>was supposed to be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“</span>Most non-conservative are intelligent enough to see that Gore and Bush are NOT equally bad from their point of view.”<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My typing sucks and always has. You lucky bastards get to try to read what I write. ;)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:standard'>-Benn Grant<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:standard'>eFix Computer Consulting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:standard'><a href="mailto:benn@4efix.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>benn@4efix.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-ligatures:standard'>603.283.6601<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> electionscience@googlegroups.com [mailto:electionscience@googlegroups.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benjamin Grant<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 24, 2013 11:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> electionsciencefoundation<br><b>Cc:</b> EM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CES #8924] Score Voting and Approval Voting not practically substantially different from Plurality?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Stephen Unger <<a href="mailto:unger@cs.columbia.edu" target="_blank">unger@cs.columbia.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>One point overlooked here is that any new party has to go thru an<br>incubation period during which it has virtually no chance of<br>winning. Voting for such a party helps strengthen it, and makes it<br>more likely that others will support it next time around. At some<br>point it may become a contender, and then it might actually start<br>winning elections. If you cast votes (approve or give high scores to)<br>only for parties that might win the current election, then we will be<br>stuck forever with the existing 2-party scam.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>It doesn't seem like you are saying I am wrong about that, you just seem unhappy that I am right?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>And under Score/Approval/Plurality voting systems, there would be three phases a party might go through:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>A) unpopular enough not to be a spoiler<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>B) popular enough to be a spoiler, but not popular enough to win<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>C) popular enough to win often (>25% of the time, for example.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On your way to C, you are going to have a LOT of B, and you may never make it to C, especially if people get burned voting for the emerging party by getting their least preferred candidate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>The only way to build a strong new party in reality, as far as I can see, is to have a voting system that does not penalize you into getting your least favored choice by voting for your most favored one.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Voters may have many different philosophies, and the voting system<br>should accommodate as many as possible. <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I don't know that I agree with either side of this. Voters ultimately, by and large and by definition, I think, want the best outcome possible. If Nader isn't a real possibility, then a non-conservation wants Gore FAR ahead of Bush. Most non-conservative are intelligent enough to see that Gore and Bush are equally bad from their point of view. And most would rate the election of Bush far more a likely than the election of Nader, and even if it was a coind toss among all three (Gore/Nader/Bush) most would rightly view stopping Bush as more critical than helping Nader beat Gore.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> It is easily possible that, in the same SV election, voters A and B<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>both score 3 candidates, C1, C2, C3, as 9, 0, 0, respectively for<br>different reasons. A might consider C2 and C3 both to be terrible,<br>while B might consider C2 to be perhaps a 4 or 5, but chooses 0<br>because of concern that C2 might defeat C1. A third voter with views<br>similar to C2's might score the candidates as 9, 5, 0. All are<br>perfectly legitimate actions. Since we cannot distinguish between<br>pairs such as A and B, it is not appropriate to try to alter the<br>voting system so as to prevent voters from acting "strategically". (I<br>think it would be a good idea to urge voters to cast SV votes that<br>accurately correspond to their appraisals, and candidates might do<br>well to so advise their supporters.)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Again, is it *theoretically possible" that Nader voters might prefer Bush to Gore, but in the real world, progressive tend to see democrats as far superior to republicans, and libertarians tend to see republicans as far superior to democrats. Ignoring that seems like a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> Efforts to change the voting system to nullify or prevent strategic<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>voting lead to systems that restrict the voter's options. E.g,<br>median-based score voting, in effect, restricts the extent to which a<br>voter can support a candidate.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>First of all, is "efforts to ... nullify or prevent strategic voting" the same meaning as "efforts to make sincere voting produce similar choices to strategic voting."?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Second of all, it seems to me that the less divergence there is between strategic and sincere voting, the more beneficial qualities the voting system has, such as:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-we can worry less about the spoiler effect, which promotes more than just 2 parties<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-we can worry less that people are accidentally voting against their interests<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-we can have fewer debates about whether people have an obligation to vote strategically or sincerely<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>This would seem to be a good thing.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>But ultimately, I don't think you answered my central questions (and pardon me if you did and I just don't see it):<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Intelligent use of Score Voting becomes Approval Voting, and the</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>harm in unwise use of Score voting means that Approval Voting is superior to (and simpler than) Score voting pragmatically.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Approval Voting tends to result in irrelevant approval votes being</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>given to weak candidates – which is pointless, or slightly stronger (but still losing) candidates can once again present a spoiler effect where a person’s least preferred choice is elected because they cast their approval only toward their most preferred choice, who was nowhere near supported enough to stop their least preferred choice.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Am I substantially wrong about any of this? Ultimately, in real and</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>practical terms, it seems that done intelligently, Score Voting devolves</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>into Approval Voting, and Approval Voting devolves into Plurality Voting.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Center for Election Science" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <a href="mailto:electionscience+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">electionscience+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options, visit <a href="https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>