I would encourage those who are interested in verifiability and who are inclined to invent their own solutions to first read up on the existing state of the art in products like Helios voting.<div><br></div><div>Jameson<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/4/29 Paul Kislanko <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jpkislanko@bellsouth.net" target="_blank">jpkislanko@bellsouth.net</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Which still begs the more important question. My point was that hand-counting ONLY verifies the accuracy of the original count. It does not address the (more important) questions of whether my ballot was counted as I intended either time.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Even if you alter every vote-collecting method to match something suitable for a hand-count, all you’ve done is verify the count. Fraud or mistakes do not typically come from counting errors.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But the technology I described exists and can be used. If every ballot has a unique PKC marker that only I can decode and the counted ballots are made public record, then you can count them by hand and I can verify that <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>a)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">the ones you counted included mine AND <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>b)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">mine was the same when you counted it as my copy of what I dropped into the ballot box.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If those verifications are not possible the accuracy of the count is the least of my concerns.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Ossipoff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:election-methods@electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@electorama.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [EM] Paul: Repeating my answer about what would be counted<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Paul:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You said:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Mike, I asked what ballots are you going to hand-count.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">And I answered you. I thought that my answer was specific.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1, We would count a hand-marked ballot. A piece of paper or cardboard which you had marked,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">eilther by pen or by punching it with a stylus. No machine would be involved in the process.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">2. Or, if, on the other hand, you voted by touchscreen (for some reason), as you spoke of, the<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
voting machine would print out a paper copy of your vote. You would carefully check it, to<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">make sure that it was as you intended. Then you'd put it in the slot of the ballot-box.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Then, along with the other ballots, would be handcounted, a) as the primary and only count mode; or <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
b) as a backup to a machine count, in the event that the machine count is contested.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This is the 3rd time that I've answered that question.Can anyone else suggest another way<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">that I could word the answer, so that it would be clearer?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">While I'm repeating my answer, I might as well also repeat that, unless a machine count<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">can be made provbably secure, the count should be _only_ a handcount.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Y<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> I vote by touching a<br>touch-screen, and the machine gives me a receipt. You say I COULD give you<br>a paper ballot to hand-count, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Or I suppose that you could keep or dispose of it, if you don't want there to be a <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">reliable record of your vote :-)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">1but if I just voted by pressing a portion of a<br>touch-sensitive-display-screen, what are you going to hand-count?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The paper or cardboard ballot that the machine has printed out, based on your touchscreen vote, <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">after you have carefully examined the ballot to make sure that it is as you want it to be,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">and then deposited it in the slot in the ballot box.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">As I said, that handcount would be a) the primary and only count; or b) a backup to a machine count,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
just in case the machine count result is contested.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My touch<br>is not verifiable by a hand-count of what the machine recorded. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Of course it is, if you have carefully examined the hardcopy that the machine has printed<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">out, and then deoposited it in the slot of lthe ballot box.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">In any case, I don't advocate the use of touchscreen, or any other kind of machine balloting. It<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">would be better to use a simple cardboard or paper ballot, marked by pen or punch-stylus. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
But, if machine balloting is used, as you speak of, then at least there should be a hardcopy that<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">the voter would examine before putting in the ballot-box slot.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It can only<br>be verified by asking me if what your machine's record matches what the<br>
machine printed out for me. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Ungrammatical and difficultly-decipherable sentence. But yes, the voter would be asked to examine<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">the printed hardcopy, to ensure that it is the ballot that s/he wants to vote.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">No, it would be quite pointless to ask you if what the machine recorded matches what it printed out. How<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
could you, or anyone, know that? There would be no particular reason to believe that such a match<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">exists. The hardcopy is the reliable record of your vote.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">And you can't "hand count" that without asking<br>
me if what you're counting matched my ballot.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nonsense. What we'd be handcounting would _be_ your ballot.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You continued:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">And you can't do THAT without<br>
violating the principles of all voting systems.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">[endquote]<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Don't worry,no one will ask you if what you put in the ballot box is<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">your ballot. I'm guessing that you're afraid that someone will know<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">which ballot was voted by Paul Kislanko. No one will know that.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">But, what we will know is that every ballot put into the ballot box<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">was examined carefully by the voter (or should have been), to ensure<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">that it is what the voter wants hir ballot to say.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I emphasize that I don't advocate using a machine for balloting or count at all. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Mike Ossipoff<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><br>----<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>