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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I said:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There are actually two aspects to verification: 1) were all votes cast COUNTED (this has been a big problem in my precinct in Mississippi) and 2) was the counting done correctly.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And later<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“I guess there’s a third angle to verifiability, namely that a vote was counted under my voter ID should match my ballot. This is actually the most important to me as a voter. If a vote were “counted” under my voter ID I need a way to see that what was counted was the same as the record I got when I voted. I should be able to compare the “counted” ballot to the one I submitted.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So, in order, and to be very specific, my concerns are<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Was my vote counted? (Think of the news stories about unlocked ballot boxes being found in a landfill.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Was “my vote” that was counted the same as what I voted (Think of the problems robert bristow-johnson pointed out)</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Do the vote—counters know how to count?</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>My point is hand-countability is the the least of my “verifiability” concerns. You argue we should only use paper ballots to make your hand-counting easier, to which I would say we should only use electronic ballots that won’t end up in a landfill or be changed by the primary hand-counter before you get to “verify” them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I’m just saying if your only “verification” is a hand-counting of ballots to just confirm that the election officials know how to count, I’m not impressed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com [mailto:election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Ossipoff<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You said:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Which still begs the more important question. My point was that<br>hand-counting ONLY verifies the accuracy of the original count. It does not<br>address the (more important) questions of whether my ballot was counted as I<br>intended either time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If count accuracy is verified, then the matter if your ballot was counted as you intended<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>depends on whether you want your ballot counted accurately, or inaccurately.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you want it counted accurately, and if accuracy is verified, then your ballot was indeed<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>counted as you intended.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or are we still back at your concern that the machine might prilnt out something different from<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>what you voted on the touchscreen? I'll repeat for the 5th or 6th time that you should always<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>check your printed ballot, to make sure that it is what you intend, before depositing it in the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>slot in the ballot-box.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Even if you alter every vote-collecting method to match something suitable<br>for a hand-count, all you've done is verify the count.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You aren't being at all clear about what you're talking about. Veriflyng the count is good<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>enough, one would expect. Of course it's necessary to also ensure that the ballots being<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>counted are genuine. Is that what you mean?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yes: If the handcount were done by governement-appointed Republicans, in a closed room, after which<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>the ballots were destroyed, then a handcount would be just like our current machine-counts.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But handcounts aren't done like that, are they. They're done openly, observed by all.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Have representatives of all parts of the political spectrum up close to observe the count in person. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Have video-cameras recording the entire count, and looking at every ballot-stack and ballot-box and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>counting station, and all of the count personnel, from all angles, wide angle and close-up.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Representatives of all parts of the political spectrum should accompany the ballots to their storage<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>room, which would have several locks, each of which can be opened by only one of those representatives.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The inside of the room, and the door to it should be well-covered by several video cameras, preferably<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>owned and operated by those representatives, and un-tamperable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you can get degree of count-fraud security with a machine-count, then I congratulate you. Then I'd have<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>no objection to a machine-count. You said something about public-key encription possibly playing a role,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>and that would be great, if it could help to achieve reliable security in a machine coulnt.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continue:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fraud or mistakes do<br>not typically come from counting errors.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But how would you Paul know that, when the count result is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>unverified?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Look at articles after the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, such as the Harpers magazine<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>article soon after the 2004 count, and then tell me that count fraud isn't a problem. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Must go now. This reply to be continued...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike Ossipoff<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br> <br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>