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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Which still begs the more important question. My point was that hand-counting ONLY verifies the accuracy of the original count. It does not address the (more important) questions of whether my ballot was counted as I intended either time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Even if you alter every vote-collecting method to match something suitable for a hand-count, all you’ve done is verify the count. Fraud or mistakes do not typically come from counting errors.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But the technology I described exists and can be used. If every ballot has a unique PKC marker that only I can decode and the counted ballots are made public record, then you can count them by hand and I can verify that <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>the ones you counted included mine AND <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>mine was the same when you counted it as my copy of what I dropped into the ballot box.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If those verifications are not possible the accuracy of the count is the least of my concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com [mailto:election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Ossipoff<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> election-methods@electorama.com<br><b>Subject:</b> [EM] Paul: Repeating my answer about what would be counted<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You said:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike, I asked what ballots are you going to hand-count.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And I answered you. I thought that my answer was specific.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1, We would count a hand-marked ballot. A piece of paper or cardboard which you had marked,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>eilther by pen or by punching it with a stylus. No machine would be involved in the process.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. Or, if, on the other hand, you voted by touchscreen (for some reason), as you spoke of, the<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>voting machine would print out a paper copy of your vote. You would carefully check it, to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>make sure that it was as you intended. Then you'd put it in the slot of the ballot-box.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Then, along with the other ballots, would be handcounted, a) as the primary and only count mode; or <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>b) as a backup to a machine count, in the event that the machine count is contested.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is the 3rd time that I've answered that question.Can anyone else suggest another way<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>that I could word the answer, so that it would be clearer?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>While I'm repeating my answer, I might as well also repeat that, unless a machine count<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>can be made provbably secure, the count should be _only_ a handcount.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Y<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I vote by touching a<br>touch-screen, and the machine gives me a receipt. You say I COULD give you<br>a paper ballot to hand-count, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or I suppose that you could keep or dispose of it, if you don't want there to be a <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>reliable record of your vote :-)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1but if I just voted by pressing a portion of a<br>touch-sensitive-display-screen, what are you going to hand-count?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The paper or cardboard ballot that the machine has printed out, based on your touchscreen vote, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>after you have carefully examined the ballot to make sure that it is as you want it to be,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>and then deposited it in the slot in the ballot box.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As I said, that handcount would be a) the primary and only count; or b) a backup to a machine count,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>just in case the machine count result is contested.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My touch<br>is not verifiable by a hand-count of what the machine recorded. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Of course it is, if you have carefully examined the hardcopy that the machine has printed<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>out, and then deoposited it in the slot of lthe ballot box.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In any case, I don't advocate the use of touchscreen, or any other kind of machine balloting. It<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>would be better to use a simple cardboard or paper ballot, marked by pen or punch-stylus. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But, if machine balloting is used, as you speak of, then at least there should be a hardcopy that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>the voter would examine before putting in the ballot-box slot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It can only<br>be verified by asking me if what your machine's record matches what the<br>machine printed out for me. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ungrammatical and difficultly-decipherable sentence. But yes, the voter would be asked to examine<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>the printed hardcopy, to ensure that it is the ballot that s/he wants to vote.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>No, it would be quite pointless to ask you if what the machine recorded matches what it printed out. How<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>could you, or anyone, know that? There would be no particular reason to believe that such a match<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>exists. The hardcopy is the reliable record of your vote.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And you can't "hand count" that without asking<br>me if what you're counting matched my ballot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nonsense. What we'd be handcounting would _be_ your ballot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You continued:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And you can't do THAT without<br>violating the principles of all voting systems.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Don't worry,no one will ask you if what you put in the ballot box is<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>your ballot. I'm guessing that you're afraid that someone will know<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>which ballot was voted by Paul Kislanko. No one will know that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But, what we will know is that every ballot put into the ballot box<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>was examined carefully by the voter (or should have been), to ensure<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>that it is what the voter wants hir ballot to say.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I emphasize that I don't advocate using a machine for balloting or count at all. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike Ossipoff<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>