<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:44 PM, MIKE OSSIPOFF wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 34px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Dave:<br><br>On Mar 24, 2012, at 3:49 PM, MIKE OSSIPOFF wrote:</div><blockquote><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 29px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div class="ecxhmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><div dir="ltr"><br>Approval can't be improved upon, other than questionably and doubtfully.<br></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>You wrote:<br><br>This is a bit much, considering that there are many competing methods that offer various worthy capabilities.</div><div><br></div><div>Looking at the ABucklin that you mention:</div><div><br></div><div>Assuming that I wish to elect A, but want to have B considered ONLY if I cannot get A elected:</div><div><br></div><div>. I cannot say this with Approval, where I must give equal approval to every candidate I approve.</div><div><br></div>. With ABucklin I can give B a lower rank than I give A, to be considered only if A's rank does not decide on a winner.<br><br>[endquote]<br><br>Yes, and I don't deny that Abucklin's improvement can be desirable. In fact, if our voting system now were Approval with the<br>options that I've been describing, I probably would use the MTA option, or, better, the MTAOC* option. The only reason why<br>I wouldn't use ABucklin or AOCBucklin is because there wouldn't, for me, be many levels of candidate-merit. Under different<br>circumstances, I might use ABucklin or AOCBucklin.<br><br>*(We've been talking about how the conditional methods have a ridiculous secondary defection strategy. I'd use the<br>MTAOC option anyway, because I don't think that people would use that ridiculous, counter-intuitive, and potentially<br>disastrous defection strategy. So, while 1st-level defection is discouraged,<br>there might well not be any 2nd level defection. Let me just add that, because I only suggest AOC and MTAOC, etc., as _options_, the<br>appearance of complexity of the conditionality-implementation software code isn't an acceptance problem, because<br>everyone will know that s/he needn't use it. An _option_ for managing one's Approval voting power isn't a problem. Anyone's<br>voting power is his/her own, and if s/he chooses a complicated way of managing it, that isn't anyone else's problem.)</div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>What did you say?</div><div><br></div><div>On or before the 24th I wrote of ABucklin based on a partial definition of it since I could not find anything complete and solid.</div><div><br></div><div>Here I read of what must be collections of methods:</div><div>. Deciding on implementing would require decisions on ballot format and counting rules.</div><div>, To be a voter would require much of that - and if vague or incomplete would properly inspire complaints.</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 34px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><div dir="ltr"><br>It isn't that Approval can't be improved on at all. I'm just saying that voting system reform advocates often have (in my perception)<br>an exaggerated impression of _how much_ Approval can be improved on.<br><br>For instance, though I like ABucklin, and it's one of my favorites, it isn't perfect. Improvements and refinements of Approval<br>don't bring perfection. Maybe you rank one of the acceptable candidates in 3rd place, because you want to distinguish between<br>the merit of the various acceptable candidates. But then, in the count, someone gets a majority when ballots give to their 2nd<br>choices. A candidate unacceptable to you wins because you ranked that acceptable candidate in 3rd place.<br><br>Or maybe the opposite could happen: You give 2nd place rankiing to B, and 1st place ranking to A. No one gets a 1st place<br>majority, and so all the ballots, including yours, give to their 2nd choice. B then gets a majority and wins. But A would<br>have gotten a majority in the next round. Or maybe A and B both got a 2nd rank majority, but B got a bigger majority<br>than A did. A would have won if you hadn't ranked B. Of course that can happen in Approval, and, in fact, of course<br>ABucklin makes it less likely. My point is merely that it's still possible.<br><br>Yes, I know that ABucklin offers something that Approval doesn't offer. I'm just saying that it doesn't _always_ prevent<br>accidentally giving the election away to a 2nd choice. And you can regret not voting Approval-style. Probably some<br>improvement--I'd use the multi-level MTA or MTAOC--but not the perfect improvement that some expect.<br><br>And, whether in Approval with options, or in Abucklin, the person voting an Approval ballot has simpler strategy<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>(though he/she has to of course be willing to forgo the multi-level nature of ABucklin or MTA).<br><br>Of course ABucklin adds MMC compliance, and I value that.<br><br>Bottom-line: Improvement, yes. Perfect or complete improvement, no.<br><br>I suggest offering improvements, such as the options of AOC, ABucklin, AOCBucklin, MTA, MTAOC, etc., & maybe delegation, sometime after<br>the enactment of Approval. Especially if there's considerable talk about wanting something fancier than ordinary Approval.</div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Which leaves me promoting Condorcet. It allows ranking but, unlike ABucklin or IRV, all that a voter ranks gets counted. Further, any voter able to match their desires to Plurality or Approval for a particular election, can vote by those rules and have them counted with the same power by Condorcet rules.<br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 34px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div></span></blockquote>Dave Ketchum<br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 34px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><div dir="ltr"><br>Mike Ossipoff</div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>