<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 6:01 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:election-methods-request@lists.electorama.com">election-methods-request@lists.electorama.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div><span></span> </div></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Kevin Venzke <<a href="mailto:stepjak@yahoo.fr">stepjak@yahoo.fr</a>><br>To: election-methods <<a href="mailto:election-methods@electorama.com">election-methods@electorama.com</a>><br>
Cc: <br>Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:16:19 +0000 (GMT)<br>Subject: Re: [EM] JQ wrt SODA<br><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><span>Hi David,<br></span></div>
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</div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">De :</span></b> David L Wetzell <<a href="mailto:wetzelld@gmail.com" target="_blank">wetzelld@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">À :</span></b> <a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Envoyé le :</span></b> Vendredi 17 février 2012 13h37<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Objet :</span></b> Re: [EM] JQ wrt SODA<br></font></div><br></blockquote>
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<div>IRV's got a first mover advantage over SODA and to catch up you need to convince someone like Soros to help you market it. It wouldn't matter if you got the whole EM list to agree with you that it was hunky-dory. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">You are supposed to get the EM list to agree first, before writing Soros directly.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>
If there were such a pot at the end of the rainbow then maybe the EM list would have an incentive to agree. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<div>But in the context of a 2-party dominated system, there aren't as many serious candidates </div>
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<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">That doesn't make much sense to me. The election method is a part of the system and it has an obvious effect on how</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">many candidates could run.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>dlw: It depends on the size of the effect of the election method. There still are cost-benefit rationales that would keep the number of serious candidates down, depending of course on the size and importance of the election. Ceteris paribus, to have a party institution behind you will make a difference regardless of what election method gets used. </div>
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<div>and so what relative advantages there are of SODA over IRV will be less, which then makes the first-mover marketing problem more significant, especially if IRV can be souped up with the seemingly slight modification of the use of a limited form of approval voting in the first stage.</div>
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<div>dlw</div>
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<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">If I remember correctly your idea is to use approval to pick finalists. I don't think this is a good idea because it breaks</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">clone independence, which is an IRV selling point. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But does it break it strongly? Let there be A, B, and C. Let BB be a B clone.</div>
<div>The field is split 30.1-40-29.9. Normally B wins. If BB enters then either B or BB gets eliminated in the first round but then their votes transfer to whoever remains and so the outcome wouldn't change. You'd need to have a crowded field so that an original finalist and their clone would both get eliminated. If either the original winner and clone(s) got eliminated, which would be harder, in all likelihood, or you might change the order of elimination in the 2nd round so that there'd be a different winner. </div>
<div><br></div><div>For me, I think there are real world safeguards against clones in politics and so to be 100% clone independence is not important. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">If your goal is to e.g. not elect Condorcet winners who place third,</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>I don't think my goal is not to elect CW's who get 3rd amount of top-rankings among the three finalists. I think the goal is to reduce the distance between the de facto center and the true center, </div>
<div>while allowing that we don't know the true changing center and don't want to chase it too easily. </div></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">I think you should use the Approval-IRV hybrid that eliminates the least approved candidate until there is a majority </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">favorite. I call it AER... I think Woodall called it Approval AV.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">dlw: IRV+ is easy to tabulate at the precinct level. One could get the 3 finalists on election night.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>The next day the votes can be sorted into 10 categories, once again at the precinct level, and the results used to find the winner. </div>
<div>This is more important than clone independence, cuz the true winner(for normal irv) would be more immune to the existence of clones than other finalists.</div><div>dlw </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Kevin</div></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "James Gilmour" <<a href="mailto:jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk">jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk</a>><br>
To: "'David L Wetzell'" <<a href="mailto:wetzelld@gmail.com">wetzelld@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>><br>Cc: <br>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:00:04 -0000<br>Subject: Re: [EM] STV vs Party-list PR, could context matter?<br><u></u>
<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">I
don't see why anyone would want to use a party-list voting system when there are
more voter-centred alternatives that fit much better with the political cultures
of countries like USA, Canada, UK. </font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>3-seat party-list is the only party-list that is adaptable to the political cultures of the USA, Canada and UK. It still has one candidate per party. And folks still would get to vote the candidate, who'd be able to meritocratically pick a vice-candidate if (s)he were to beat the third place candidate by more than one-third of the total vote. Or, (s)he could announce who'd they pick in advance so as to rally a minority group within their party's support for their party. Either way, it'd be more user-friendly for voters. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Why anyone would want to use the
Hare quota when, with preferential voting, it can distort the
proportionality - in a way that Droop does not. </font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>LR Hare is designed to maximize the absolute value of the differences between the percent of the vote received and the percent of the seats won across all participating parties. It's weird effects occur for when the number of seats is very high. It is meant to be used in conjunction with single-member elections that are biased in favor of the bigger parties. It's bias in favor of bigger third parties offsets the other bias. </div>
<div><br></div><div>But at the end of the day, proportionality isn't the target. What is the target is a system that uses a mix of single-winner and multi-winner elections to safeguard minority rights. The Hare quota's bias in favor of smaller parties is why it (when used in conjunction with single-winner elections) is superior at giving minority groups more exit threat from the bigger parties. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Why anyone would
want to restrict the voting system to 3-seat districts instead of adopting a
flexible approach to district magnitude to fit local geography and recognised
communities..</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In the US, we redistrict regularly. All are s'posed to be about the same size of voting population. We're used to it and bigger-seated districts tend to be more third party friendly than smaller-seated districts. It's not fair to give that to some people and not others. So it's best to have the same number of seats in all districts. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Plus, the effects of gerrymandering a 1-seat and 3-seat PR election go in opposite directions and so to use state senate districts also for state representative elections would be a very potent anti-gerrymandering technique. </div>
<div><br></div><div>dlw </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">James
Gilmour</font></span></div></div></blockquote></div>