Whether we like it or not, <div>FairVote is the leading electoral reform org in the USA</div><div>and what Rob Richie is pitching in the NYTIMES is the standard that's going to get voter-attention.</div><div><br></div>
<div>I'd rather do my best to advance electoral reform period and to make such gain traction in the USA. </div><div>It's readable and it all strongly tends to be true and that's good enuf for me. </div><div>
<br>
</div><div>Also, I believe that what Rob has written is consistent with the use of IRV3/AV3.</div><div>It might be a good idea to encourage such as an alternative to making out Burlington, VT into </div><div>something that it should not have been. </div>
<div>And, of course, to push harder for PR's use in "more local" elections that need it to become competitive.</div><div><br></div><div>dlw</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 8:19 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:election-methods-request@lists.electorama.com">election-methods-request@lists.electorama.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<br>Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Election-Methods Digest, Vol 92, Issue 55 (David L Wetzell)<br>
2. NYT/Richie voting reform "debate" next Sunday; write in.<br>
(Jameson Quinn)<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: David L Wetzell <<a href="mailto:wetzelld@gmail.com">wetzelld@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a><br>
Cc: <br>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:49:36 -0600<br>Subject: Re: [EM] Election-Methods Digest, Vol 92, Issue 55<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Kevin Venzke <<a href="mailto:stepjak@yahoo.fr" target="_blank">stepjak@yahoo.fr</a>><br>
To: election-methods <<a href="mailto:election-methods@electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@electorama.com</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 22:37:56 +0000 (GMT)<br>Subject: Re: [EM] Kevin V<br><div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div><span>Hi David,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-LEFT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-TOP:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;min-height:0px">
</div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">De :</span></b> David L Wetzell <<a href="mailto:wetzelld@gmail.com" target="_blank">wetzelld@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">À :</span></b> <a href="mailto:stepjak@yahoo.fr" target="_blank">stepjak@yahoo.fr</a>; EM <<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Envoyé le :</span></b> Mardi 7 février 2012 16h17<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Objet :</span></b> Re: Kevin
V<br></font></div><br>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222">dlw: I argue that the strength of the US presidency and regular presidential elections has the effect of building up our two-party system. <br></font></div>
<div>This is why I take as a given that there tend to be 2 bigger major parties and not as many serious candidates in "single-winner elections". This in turn tends to </div>
<div>reduce the import of the diffs among the wide variety of single-winner elections. </div></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>I think it works like this:</div>
<div>President isn't responsible to or chosen by Congress -></div>
<div>There is not<var></var> that much prize for having a majority of a house -></div>
<div>Weak party discipline (because of less focus on party: a candidate can get reelected even if his peers are unhappy) -></div>
<div>If you are a viable candidate, there is no need for you to carve out a new party. There is only room for two contenders per</div>
<div>race (under FPP), and there are two parties that will take you as long as you can win for them.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>dlw: Aye, but the prez election itself and its potential for coat-tails and the reward from capturing one or both of the US legislatures</div>
<div>does build up the parties who can afford to run a serious prez election race. <span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">I think some of the weak party discipline is also due to the restrictions on donations to parties in the 1974 FEC act.</span></div>
<div>Our system wd function better if there was more intra-party discipline and the donations flowed thru the relatively transparent venue of the party. </div></blockquote>
<div dir="ltr"> </div></blockquote>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">Personally I prefer weak party discipline. I like candidates to have independence, with the decision-making power</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">less concentrated. And I'm suspicious of what party policies designed at the national level would look like.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>dlw: Well, intra-party discipline is needed one way or the other to get things done. Our system right now is characterized as full of political entrepreneurship, which makes bills a lot more complicated than they need to be and things take longer and too much of politicians' time gets spent fund-raising... </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div> </div>
<div>KV: I think we could have three "parties" (if not a much greater variety of viewpoints) with the right method. I wouldn't care</div>
<div>if they are actually parties or just a higher number of real choices, on average, in a race.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>dlw:Would it make a diff if our two major parties became two different major parties, bridging the gap between the de facto center and the true center?</div>
<div>If American forms of PR were adopted so that there'd still be 2 major parties per area, they wouldn't be the same 2 parties for all regions, which would then enable minor parties </div>
<div>to contest the duopoly. And if this got complemented by a host of LTPs(with coalitions) that specialized in contesting "more local" elections and voting strategically together in "less local" elections, </div>
<div>along with other acts that hold elected officials accountable to their promises then we'd have better quality choices, even if the quantity is less than we'd prefer.</div></blockquote></blockquote>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">Yes, I think it would be useful if we could increase the incentive to stand at the median, even if two "parties" maintained</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">their grip on things.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">I don't find PR very interesting personally. It can be its own goal, but it doesn't seem useful for the things I'm concerned</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">about.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>dlw: For more local electyions that are rarely competitive, it's the only way to make them not DINOs. We used quasi-proportional elections for IL from 1870-1980 and it kept either major party from dominating the state's politics, so other states that are/were economically dependent on IL could afford to be more politically independent than if one party had been able to leverage their domination of IL's politics... It's a neglected part of our history!!!</div>
<div><br></div><div>dlw</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div><div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">Kevin</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Kevin Venzke <<a href="mailto:stepjak@yahoo.fr" target="_blank">stepjak@yahoo.fr</a>><br>
To: election-methods <<a href="mailto:election-methods@electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@electorama.com</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 22:53:34 +0000 (GMT)<br>Subject: Re: [EM] [CES #4445] Re: Looking at Condorcet<br>
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><span>Hi Robert,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>I would +1 to Bryan Mills' post.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>>in the two-candidate case, you would have to assume unequal treatment for voters</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Yes, utility inherently does this. It's trying to maximize "happiness" which is a different ideal from giving</span></div>
<div><span>everyone equal weight (e.g. even people who don't have a strong opinion).</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>>but when Clay says that Score or Approval is better at picking the Condorcet winner than is a </span></div>
<div><span>>Condorcet-compliant method, *that* is no tautology is obviously controversial, since it says that there is </span></div>
<div><span>>a number closer to 3 than the number 3 itself.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>What Clay means is that score/Approval are better at picking the *sincere* Condorcet winner. Yes, that's</span></div>
<div><span>obviously controversial. It could be true if it so happens that nobody wants to vote truthfully under</span></div>
<div><span>Condorcet methods, while Approval in practice never has an<var></var>y bad outcomes, etc.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>>if it isn't 0 (for when you don't get who you voted for) and 1 (for when your candidate is elected), then </span></div>
<div><span>>some voter is diluting their utilities and i think it's pretty useless and in bad taste to ask voters to do that </span></div>
<div><span>>explicitly with a Score ballot.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>"Utilities" refers to what voters actually "feel," not what they are putting on the ballot.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Kevin</span></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Jameson Quinn <<a href="mailto:jameson.quinn@gmail.com">jameson.quinn@gmail.com</a>><br>To: EM <<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>>, electionsciencefoundation <<a href="mailto:electionscience@googlegroups.com">electionscience@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
Cc: <br>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:18:52 -0600<br>Subject: [EM] NYT/Richie voting reform "debate" next Sunday; write in.<br><h1 style="line-height:1.083em;margin-right:0px;text-align:left;font-size:2.4em;margin-left:0px;margin-bottom:8px;font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif;font-weight:normal;margin-top:0px">
Invitation to a Dialogue: A Better Way to Elect?</h1><span style="line-height:15px;text-align:left;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:10px;font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif"></span><h6 style="line-height:1.2em;margin-right:0px;text-align:left;color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:1em;margin-left:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:normal;margin-top:0px">
Published: February 7, 2012</h6><div style="line-height:15px;margin-right:0px;text-align:left;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:10px;width:132px;margin-left:5px;margin-bottom:5px;font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif;margin-top:5px;float:right">
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><strong>To the Editor:</strong></p></div><div style="text-align:left;width:190px;margin-bottom:10px!important;display:inline;float:left;clear:left;margin-right:15px!important;line-height:15px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:10px;margin-left:0px!important;font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif;margin-top:6px!important">
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<h6 style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:3px;margin-left:0px;color:rgb(144,144,144);font-size:0.9em;line-height:1.223em;font-weight:normal;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:right">
Hieronymus</h6><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.2em;line-height:1.25em"></p></div></div><div style="line-height:15px;text-align:left;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:10px;margin-bottom:1.7em;font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif;margin-top:1.5em">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Every four years a handful of the same old states effectively pick party nominees for president, voting earlier and earlier with campaign spending mattering more and more.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The parties should winnow their field with what is known as the <a title="description of American Plan on FairVote Web site" href="http://archive.fairvote.org/?page=965" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)" target="_blank">American Plan</a>, a nomination schedule that rewards retail campaigning and gives late-entering candidates a better chance. Ten biweekly rounds of voting would be held, starting in small states. Delegates would be<a title="how proportional allocation works from FairVote Web site" href="http://www.fairvote.org/delegate-allocation-rules-in-2012-gop#.TzFko1Zjc4T" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)" target="_blank">allocated proportionally</a> rather than by winner take all.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Up to three candidates for each party would earn a place in a national primary, held in June in conjunction with Congressional primaries.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Ranked-choice voting — a proven system used in national elections in Australia and mayoral elections in a dozen American cities, in which voters rank candidates in order of preference — would ensure that winners earn majority support in an “<a title="explanation of how instant runoff works" href="http://www.instantrunoff.com/the-basics" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)" target="_blank">instant runoff</a>.”</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">For general elections, the nominees of major parties should face more competition from third-party and independent candidates by having fairer ballot access, inclusive debates, ranked-choice voting and, eventually, a <a title="Web site promoting a national popular vote" href="http://nationalpopularvote.com/" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)" target="_blank">national popular vote</a> for president.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">For Congressional elections, creating larger districts with several seats and a proportional voting system to allow more voters to elect a preferred candidate would better represent the left, the right and the center.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">With these changes, all Americans could be engaged in our presidential elections, not just the favored few of Iowa, New Hampshire and the other early primary and caucus states. And we just might regularly end up with better presidents and members of Congress.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">ROB RICHIE<br>Takoma Park, Md., Feb. 6, 2012</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<em>The writer is executive director of FairVote, which promotes election reform.</em></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<strong><em>Editors’ Note: </em></strong><em>We invite readers to respond to this letter for our Sunday Dialogue. We plan to publish responses and Mr. Richie’s rejoinder in the Sunday Review. E-mail:<a href="mailto:letters@nytimes.com" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)" target="_blank">letters@nytimes.com</a></em></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
---------------</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Jameson here... I think we should definitely take this opportunity to promote reform in general. I'd advise a "yes, and" approach to Richie. As I see it, it is definitely not worth trying to talk about the flaws in IRV. Richie will get his rejoinder; it's impossible to pre-rebut all of the various half-truths or worse that he could come up with, so it's better not to try. Also, remember, we want the average reader to go away thinking that all the experts agree that election reform is a great idea, not feeling that it's a minefield of debate. So say your piece, but be nice to Richie, no matter what you think he deserves.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Personally, I'd love it if the Center for Election Science could have an official response. Similarly for all the people with credentials - votefair, etc.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">A similar idea: statement signers, do you think we could agree on a response in time to get published on Sunday?</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Jameson</p></div>
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