Mike O.-<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">DLW wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Not everyone thinks having a two-party dominated system is bad.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Quite so. The Republicans, the Democrats, and the media owned and run by the same</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">corporate rich families that own the Republocrats don't think two-party domination is</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">bad.</span></div><div><br></div><div>[end quote]</div><div><br></div><div>It is a bad system currently. That is not in contest. The issue is where a two-party dominated system is necessarily bad. I argue a two-party dominated system could be okay if there were more competitive elections, meaningful diffs, and dynamism due to how the duopoly is contested by minor parties and LTPs that specialize in contesting "more local" elections, while voting strategically together in "less local" elections along with other public attempts to move the center on key issues. <br>
<font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I continued:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Good</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">luck getting electoral reforms in a two-party dominated system tilting to a</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">single-party dominated system that level the playing fiield for all parties</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">100%.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You wrote: You're quite right. Voting system reform may never happen. If it does, then maybe the</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">children of our great grandchildren will benefit from it.</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>Or we eschew perfectionism and play political jujitsu with election reforms that decentralize influence more so than power. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You wrote:That's why our immediate effort should be devoted not to getting a better voting system,</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">but rather to best using the voting system that we already have. Plurality may be the worst</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">(or maybe the 2nd worst, after Borda, or the 3rd worst, after Borda and IRV),</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">but its full badness depends on more than just the voting system. It depends on worthless polling,</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">maybe even combined with falsified polling. (Falsified poll-results have sometimes been caught).</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div>
<div><br></div><div>dlw: The implics of the import of electoral reform and FPTP being in use is to devote our efforts to strategically support the most likely alternatives to FPTP to succeed in the near future. </div><div>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You wrote:That's why suggest that we should be putting most of our effort into polling, to inform Plurality voting.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>dlw: I'm cool with pluralizing polling, but I'd rather put a lot more effort into supporting FairVote's upcoming push for American forms of PR.<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You wrote: As I've said, our Plurality elections are zero-information elections. The right strategy for 0-info elections</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">is to just vote for one's favorite. Voters should be informed of those facts.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">This lesser-of-2-evils defensive stragegy could be valid, if it were the result of good information. But</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">it isn't.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Quite aside from that, tell people about these valid sayings:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">"If you vote for a lesser-evil, then you get an evil."</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>strategic voting can only work if it effects changes in behavior among the parties.</div><div>I myself plan to vote strategically in the upcoming prez election for the major party candidate who receives significant negative campaigning on tv in the last couple weeks of the election. I take this sort of perverse behavior as a signal for the side who is greater-evil, unable to win on its stands on the issues. there's nothing wrong with voting strategically if it's bundled with others so as to affect changes in bhavior on behalf of the greater good and ourselves. </div>
<div>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You wrote: Ideally, it should be rank-balloting, nationwide, with the national results of each local poll weighted</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">by the quotient of the population of the region represented by that poll (probably much more than the city polled)</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">divided by the number of voters in the poll.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">The resulting national set of ballots should then be counted to look for a Condorcet Winner (CW).</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">The CW is a candidate who doesn't have a pairwise defeat. X has a pairwise defeat if there is some Y such that</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">the number of voters who rank Y over X is greater than the number of voters who rank X over Y.</span></div><div>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">That CW is the candidate that Plurality voters need to come together on. If you want to avoid the election of</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">someone worse than that CW, than you (and everyone who agrees with you on that) should vote for the CW in the</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Plurality election.</span></div><div>[endquote]<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br>dlw: Interesting idea, but if all of the candidates are not ranked then there tends to be lots of ties and there often isn't a CW candidate. As I argued earlier with others, I hold that options among candidates are inherently fuzzy and so the CW is not as useful of a criterion since our rankings will inevitably be somewhat noisy or ad hoc. </div>
<div><br></div><div>You need to take seriously the Limited Information problem of voters and the shifting nature of polls and preferences, often easily influenced by the way the choices are presented or issues are described. </div>
<div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:So everyone, all the progressive parties, all the progressive political organizations, all the progressive</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">media, should be told about that CW.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">But let's do more polling this time, among the candidates (Starting immediately with all who've declared or might</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">declare). Then, poll again after the nominations.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Plurality with Condorcet polling is equivalent to Condorcet.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Condorcet for 2012!</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div>
<div><br>
You'd need a whole lot of people to rally behind it for it to work. There'd be problems w. the timing and structure of the polls, which of course can and would get heavily politicized. Moreover, you have a selection bias due to the relatively few people who'd understand Condorcet criterion for elections. This would hamper your ability to get a bandwagon effect going for you. <br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I view voter preferences as endogenous, more so than exogenous and fuzzy.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">If they don't matter, then there's no need for elections.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>I didn't say they didn't matter. I said I don't want to treat them as exogenous or fixed and readily ascertainable. </div><div>This is ecause of reality and it is one of the reasons that democracy is always an ongoing experiment...<br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO wrote: And if voters are feeling the need to bury their favorite, then no one will ever know</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">what voters really want. That's the worst state of affairs that a voting system can</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">create.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">It makes a joke of voting.</span></div><div>[endquote]</div>
<div><br></div><div>elections are relatively weak at signaling folks "preferences". This is why there's gotta be more trust in the politics of Gandhi that move the center and make those in power accommodate those out of power. <br>
<br>The world will not end if I vote strategically. In single winner election, there's always going to be an effective limitation of options given to voters and so some are likely going to need to vote strategically. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I don't think we need to nail the center, so much as we need to have it</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">moved via extra-political cultural change-oriented activities. This lets</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">me deemph these purported flaws in IRV.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">IRV forces voters to bury their favorite. De-emphasize that.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>[endquote]<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">When a small fraction of voters bury their favorite, all of democracy becomes a complete farce. <br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I wrote: Some may think that this is wise. IRV doesn't leave no party behind.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">But they'd be voting like that a lot more often with plurality.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:So that's all you can say for IRV--comparing it to Plurality? That</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">isn't saying a whole lot, is it.</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not a perfectionist. I do not claim there is a right election rule for all elections. I do not wish to defend IRV as such. It is significantly better than FPTP and it's got a first-mover and marketing advantage over all the alternatives, of which there is no heir apparent as the one to replace FPTP. </div>
<div><br></div><div>For when FPTP is in place, it is rational to be strategic in one's advocacy for electoral reform. </div><div>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Ultimately, though if folks want to change things, they need to do more</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">than try to get the right party into power.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:Do we want a method that needs that? Do we want that when there are</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">plenty of methods that don't force</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">that favorite-burial strategy?</span></div><div>[endquote]<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br>Maybe it's inevitable and it's chimerical to think that the right election rule will make things a lot better....<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I wrote: Do most people care? Not really.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">At the end of the day, it's just not that key of a facet of an electoral</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">rule.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[end quote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">That's an astonishing thing for someone at EM to say.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br>[end quote]</div><div><br></div><div>I am an iconoclast wannabe, remember? </div><div>My angle is that what matters most is the right mix of multi-winner and single-winner elections a lot more so than getting the sorts of options given to voters right. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO wrote:Most people care very much about electing a compromise. They've shown that they'll do</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">anything in order to do so. That includes burying their favorite, which they regularly do,</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">calling it "pragmatic", to not "waste their vote".</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">If you're saying that most people don't care about getting a voting system that doesn't</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">force favorite-burial, do you really think that "most people" know that there are such</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">voting systems?</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>I think most people don't think that vote-burying by some is that big of a problem or the most important </div>
<div>thing that needs to be changed to make things better. Or they judge their chances of vote-burying as low enough that they don't have any incentive to switch to an election rule that would prevent it altogether "ideally". <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">IRV is a signicant improvement over FPTP.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Depends on what you call "significant". And you can define "significant" as weakly as you</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">want to. But most would agree that a method that strongly, often, forces favorite-burial</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">is not significantly better than Plurality. I posted about the common and ordinary scenario</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">in which many people's compromise will lose in IRV unless they favorite-bury by voting Compromise over</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Favorite.</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br>What you mean instead of voting candidate K as my no. 3, I vote K as number 5 on my list? </div><div>When you're ranking umpteeen candidates, you're obviously more likely to "bury" somebody further down the list than you'd ideally like to have done, presuming of course you've done your homework on all of the candidates on all of the key issues (which ever issues those might be) in the formation of your ideal ranking of them all...</div>
<div><br><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">t's got a first-mover and a marketing edge over all other alternatives to</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">FPTP in the US.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:Translation: It's being heavily promoted by a well-funded organization. IRVists have been jetting around</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">the country to attend expensive banquets, and probably wine, dine, and power-lunch important small party</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">leaders and other progressive political leaders.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">To what extent has Rob Richie's personal family wealth funded that IRV promotion?</span></div>
<div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>dlw: Who gives a shit? Electoral reform is on the move, unless it gets stifled by perfectionism.</div><div>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO: </span><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">That's explicitly said by IRVists, often. I don't know if they say it when they promote IRV to the</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">public :-) If not, then the IRVists are dishonestly trying to foist a bad voting system off on the</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">public because of a different agenda, for STV. </span></div><div><br></div><div>endquote</div><div><br></div><div>dlw: All that matters is that we get more competitive elections, less cut-throat competition between the two major parties and give more voice for minorities by increasing their chances to be the swing voters. STV in more US elections would do that. IRV paves the way for STV. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">There is no self-evident oft-used alternative.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:IRV has been "often-used" in Australia, where people express a need to bury their favorite</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">to help a big-two lesser-evil.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Nothing will become "often-used" unless we start using it. If we stick with what's been</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">"often-used", then improvement is impossible, isn't it.</span></div><div><br></div><div>[endquote]<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br>If you are Australian, you are welcome to get your country to use IRV(or what-not) to choose among FPP, IRV and other electoral rules....</div><div>I am US_American. I work in a FPTP dominated system that makes it wise to support the rule most likely to replace FPTP in the most elections...</div>
<div><br><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">You all proffer four</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">possibilities.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">That's not going to help rally folks around electoral reform.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I daresay it's a lot more than four possibilities. Yes, that's a problem.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">If EM is to be a helpful resource for the public to look at, to decide about</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">voting system reform, we've got to emphasize _why_ we like certain criteria. ...How</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">we justify our criteria in terms of their guarantees for the voter. Voters want to</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">defeat a greater evil. Tell them how various methods help them do that without</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">burying their favorite.</span></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>Thankyou for reaffirming my point that there's no self-evident alternative to IRV as the main alternative to IFPP. </div>
<div>I don't like elevating your criteria as decisive because I think its consequences for having a functioning democracy are over-stated. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlwYou wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">IRV+(PR in "More local" elections) is a sound prescription for making the</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">US's political system a lot better</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:No, not really. IRV won't make anything better, for the reasons I've given.</span></div>
<div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>Your reasons do not imply IRV won't make anything better. It merely says that IRV won't make everything perfect according to a specific criterion for "perfection". </div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">MO:As for PR, that would be even more difficult to achieve in the U.S. Yes, it was</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">tried for a while in a few cities. So have some rank-balloting systems, including Bucklin.</span></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div>
<div>dlw:If it's 3-5 seat and used for "more local" elections in ways that do not challenge two- party domination, it'd be easier. </div><div>It solves a problem of chronicially non-competitive elections due to de facto segregation by characteristic correlated with political preferences. <br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">, especially when coupled with even more</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">critical political cultural changes, like what #OWS is trying to accomplish.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I don't know what #OWS is. I'm not saying that voting system reform is everything. In fact,</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">I've said that making good use of Plurality is much more imporant, right now, than working</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">for a better voting system.</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>Occupy Washington. </div><div><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">dlw wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">This is what's going to be on the front-burner and so do you want to get</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">behind it or do you want to try shoot its tires? Cuz, unless you got a</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">clear alternative that is easy to market to US voters</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">[endquote]</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">We have plenty of alternative voting systems, all much better than IRV. Methods that meet</span><br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px">FBC, SDSC and 3P or UP. And all or nearly all of them are more briefly stated than IRV.</span></div><div>[endquote]</div><div><br></div><div>
dlw:having plenty of alts is not the same as a clear alternative. </div><div>And if the reason they're better is an alphabet soup of acronyms then you're going to have a hard time marketing any of them to US voters...<br>
<br style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">dlw</font></div>