<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Jameson offers a couple very good points:</div><div> There are MANY ways to commit fraud.</div><div> MANY methods are susceptible, including Plurality.</div><div><br></div><div>Dave Ketchum</div><br><div><div>On May 4, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Unfortunately, there is no task that you can manually ask the voters to do, which won't lead to unacceptably high levels of spoiled ballots. My ballot doesn't count because I didn't vote against Wingnut Moonbat? Or because I didn't count up my approvals correctly? Once I failed to win a competition because I incorrectly counted and self-reported my score. Since it was a math competition, perhaps that was just. But voting is not a math competition; spoiled votes should be avoided.<div> <br></div><div>So, you need some ballot integrity process which is separate from the voting system used. It could be automatic photos of the ballot; it could be machine-marked-voter-verified-paper-ballots; it could be some kind of transparent sticker or other surface treatment; it could be multiple custody throughout the ballot's lifetime (never let anyone alone with them); or many other things.</div> <div><br></div><div>Note that such a system is just as necessary for plurality, or approval with a requirement to vote against, or whatever. I can just as easily commit fraud by spoiling my opponents' votes as by adding votes for me. </div> <div><br></div><div>Jameson<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/5/4 Dave Ketchum <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davek@clarityconnect.com" target="_blank">davek@clarityconnect.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Agreed that the warning about "fraudprone" is valid. Rather than the labor-intensive change I see below, I would simply require the voter to indicate quantity of approvals.<br><font color="#888888"> <br> Dave Ketchum</font><div><div></div><div><br> <br> On May 4, 2011, at 3:14 AM, ⸘Ŭalabio‽ wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> 2011-05-04T05:48:15Z, “Matt Welland” <<a href="mailto:Matt@Kiatoa.Com">Matt@Kiatoa.Com</a>>:<br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I think it is within reach for us to change this bad situation but we need the experts (you) to accept that the world isn't ready for the perfect solution and drive hard for the most achievable and pragmatic solution. Please consider getting behind Approval voting and to stop confusing the politicians and public with complicated ideas. Repeat this everywhere: Approval good, plurality bad, IRV worse.<br> </blockquote> <br> I know that we must focus like a laser. I point out that plurality and IRV are bad. I advocate approval with a twist:<br> <br> The ballot like thus, is fraudprone:<br> <br> [ ] Candidate A<br> [ ] Candidate B<br> [ ] Candidate C<br> [ ] Candidate D<br> [ ] Candidate E<br> [ ] Candidate F<br> [ ] Candidate G<br> [ ] Candidate H<br> [ ] Candidate I<br> [ ] Candidate J<br> [ ] Candidate K<br> [ ] Candidate L<br> [ ] Candidate M<br> [ ] Candidate N<br> [ ] Candidate O<br> [ ] Candidate P<br> [ ] Candidate Q<br> [ ] Candidate R<br> [ ] Candidate S<br> [ ] Candidate T<br> [ ] Candidate U<br> [ ] Candidate V<br> [ ] Candidate W<br> [ ] Candidate X<br> [ ] Candidate Y<br> [ ] Candidate Z<br> <br> <br> Because a supporter of O can approval O after the ballots are cast on every ballot not already approving O. This is better:<br> <br> Instructions<br> <br> One must either approve [+] or reject [-] every candidate or the ballot is considered spoiled.<br> <br> [+] [-] Candidate A<br> [+] [-] Candidate B<br> [+] [-] Candidate C<br> [+] [-] Candidate D<br> [+] [-] Candidate E<br> [+] [-] Candidate F<br> [+] [-] Candidate G<br> [+] [-] Candidate H<br> [+] [-] Candidate I<br> [+] [-] Candidate J<br> [+] [-] Candidate K<br> [+] [-] Candidate L<br> [+] [-] Candidate M<br> [+] [-] Candidate N<br> [+] [-] Candidate O<br> [+] [-] Candidate P<br> [+] [-] Candidate Q<br> [+] [-] Candidate R<br> [+] [-] Candidate S<br> [+] [-] Candidate T<br> [+] [-] Candidate U<br> [+] [-] Candidate V<br> [+] [-] Candidate W<br> [+] [-] Candidate X<br> [+] [-] Candidate Y<br> [+] [-] Candidate Z<br> <br> Now the ballots are resistant to manipulation after voting. This format is human/machine-readable.</blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>