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<div> From: abd@lomaxdesign.com<br>
><br>
> At 06:33 AM 3/6/2007, raphfrk@netscape.net wrote:<br>
> >From: abd@lomaxdesign.com<br>
> ><br>
> > > No. But that condition is essentially impossible. There is *never* a<br>
> > > consistent faction of that size in a majoritarian democracy, indeed,<br>
> > > I think I wrote, there is no faction of *any* size of which this is<br>
> > > true, since the vast majority of choices made in real societies enjoy<br>
> > > almost total consensus.<br>
> > ><br>
> >It happened in Northern Ireland. The nationalist faction is around<br>
> >45% of the population. They want NI to be part of the Republic. The<br>
> >other faction is the unionist faction. They wanted to remain part<br>
> >of the UK and represented around 55% of the population.<br>
><br>
> No, it did *not* happen in Northern Ireland. That is a *single* decision.<br>
> Yes, it is a big one, but is it being suggested here that the alternative,<br>
> joining the Republic, be imposed on the majority?<br>
<br>
Many probably would. There is an arguement that the vast majority of the<br>
people on the island wanted the island to be a single nation. Probably<br>
90%+ in the South and 45% in the North giving an overall majority of around<br>
80%.<br>
<br>
Does a minority (Ulster Unionists) have a right to break up the nation?<br>
Likewise, does a minority (Irish Nationalists when they were part of the<br>
UK) have a similar right?<br>
<br>
I would say yes in both cases. However, I wouldn't have agreed with<br>
majority nationalist counties remaining part of the UK (and so being<br>
part of NI). A fairer split would be to have a referendum in each<br>
county and let the residents decide which state they wish to be part<br>
of.<br>
<br>
Anyway, that is an interesting discussion in itself. Does a geographically<br>
concentrated minority have the right to seceed ?<br>
<br>
However, that was not the issue that I was raising. The point was that<br>
it is possible to have a majority which consistantly is in power to the<br>
detriment of the minority. <br>
<br>
NI politics is extremely factional. There are Unionist parties and <br>
Nationalist parties and some new (and small) non-aligned parties.<br>
<br>
The Unionist parties would band together in order to prevent the<br>
nationalists from having any power whatsoever. The civil disorder was<br>
caused partly by a desire to bring down the state but also by considerable<br>
discrimination. The government was permenently controlled by the<br>
Unionists, even with the best will in the world, the civil service is going<br>
to be biased towards Unionists. (and the Unionists didn't exactly have<br>
the best will in the world).<br>
<br>
In a normal parliament having 45% of the seats would give a reasonable<br>
amount of power, but if the 55% have an (internal) rule that it is<br>
not permitted to vote-trade with them, then the seats are worthless.<br>
<br>
There was only 1 bill passed that was initiated by a Nationalist for<br>
something like 50 years (and it was on a minor topic).<br>
<br>
> But, again, this is only a single decision, all be it one that feeds quite a few others.<br>
<br>
It was all the decisions, the Nationalists were not consulted on<br>
anything.<br>
<br>
> Would Northern Ireland be part of England one year and the next year part of<br>
> Ireland? This is the only way I could think of spreading out the "getting their way."<br>
<br>
One option would be allow people to go their separate ways. If you can't<br>
get along, should people be forced to ?<br>
<br>
The solution that the new power-sharing assembly is going for is to have<br>
NI separate, but have bodies that facilitate cooperation between the<br>
republic and NI. For example, there would be a body dealing with<br>
coordinating the rail networks etc.<br>
<br>
> You want my opinion of how to deal with a situation like this?<br>
> You try to give everyone their "way." You need a system in place<br>
> for functioning as a deliberative democracy that can seek consensus.<br>
> FA/DP is exactly such a solution, and it is exactly designed to<br>
> function even in very difficult situations.<br>
<br>
Right, NI politics at the time was degenerate.<br>
<br>
However, it does highlight the problems of giving all the power to the<br>
majority. It only works if there is some factional flexibility.<br>
<br>
The society either needs to be made up of a faction that has say 70%+ of the<br>
State, so it doesn't have to fear losing power, or the society needs to be<br>
made up of lots of smaller factions, so no 1 of them will be able to<br>
be a majority on its own.<br>
<br>
The problem with a 55/45 split is that the 55 faction has to work hard to<br>
maintain unity or it loses its power.<br>
<br>
Unionists supporters probably didn't have much democracy either as they<br>
had to vote for the Unionist party in order to ensure a Unionist win.<br>
<br>
><br>
> FA/DP theoretically will bring together all factions at a single table,<br>
> where a relatively small group of people who *actually* represent,<br>
> collectively, nearly everyone, can seek better solutions than Half-Win, Half-Lose.<br>
<br>
They have to want to talk to each other. Unionists were afraid that<br>
giving any power to the Nationalists would mean that they would move<br>
NI more towards the Republic (which is probably what they would do).<br>
<br>
> Maybe Northern Ireland should be independent, or maybe it should be<br>
> partitioned (very complex and difficult but doable *if* there is<br>
> free choice and full compensation, which is almost never proposed,<br>
> instead what is proposed are "us win you lose" kinds of partition....<br>
> get off my land! you don't belong here. Even if you have been here,<br>
> with your ancestors, for hundreds of years).<br>
<br>
Alternatively, there is no need for compensation if property rights<br>
are preserved in both jusistictions.<br>
<br>
Working out how much land prices drop would be pretty expensive.<br>
<br>
><br>
> >In fact, the original split of the island into NI and the Free State (as<br>
> >the Republic was then), was designed to give the unionists as much<br>
> >territory as possible, while still giving them a majority.<br>
><br>
> Bad design, for sure. Setting up situations with narrow majorities<br>
> on very important issues is a formula for civil war. N. Ireland is<br>
> an example that proves this, but there are many others.<br>
<br>
Right. There are those who argue that was the point of partition. If<br>
people are fighting each other, then they aren't a problem for the UK.<br>
><br>
> >This was the single most important issue in every election, and the<br>
> >unionists won every time.<br>
><br>
> And this, of course, results in terrible consequences for *everyone*,<br>
> even for these politicians and certainly for their communities.<br>
<br>
Yup. However, there was very little trust between the two communities.<br>
That is difficult to build up when random people are being killed.<br>
<br>
> > ><br>
> >The peace process is an attempt to restore local government in NI.<br>
> >The rules that they intend to use are not rule by majority.<br>
> >They use PR to elect the assembly. Each candidate must say if they<br>
> >are a nationalist, a unionist or neither. No bill can be passed by<br>
> >the assembly unless it majority support from both the nationalists<br>
> >and the unionists (and probably overall majority support). This is<br>
> >obviously subject to abuse. Once, some of the independents redesignated<br>
> >themselves as unionists so that a bill could be passed.<br>
><br>
> This is a special response to a special situation, and, yes, it is<br>
> wide open to exactly the abuse mentioned. My own suggestion would<br>
> be to use Asset Voting for the assembly.<br>
<br>
PR-STV achieves (or near achieves) the same thing. The main problem<br>
was that the Unionists and Nationalists didn't like each other. Very <br>
few systems would work in that case.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="clear: both;">Raphfrk<br>
--------------------<br>
Interesting site<br>
"what if anyone could modify the laws"<br>
<br>
www.wikocracy.com</div>
<div> </div>
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