[EM] Condorcet mention in a relatively mainstream context

Thu Jun 26 17:46:08 PDT 2025

I don’t disagree with you on any of that.

But I will say that

> I'm pigheadedly stubborn about the truth.  And I call out lies and liars.

is indistinguishable from what a Trumper would say.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 8:44 PM robert bristow-johnson via Election-Methods
<election-methods at lists.electorama.com> wrote:

> I'm pigheadedly stubborn about the truth.  And I call out lies and liars.
>
> And I am pigheadedly stubborn about these principles of elections in an
> authentic democracy:
>
> 1. well-warned elections
> 2. equal and unhindered access of the enfranchised to the vote
> 3. the secret ballot
> 4. one-person-one-vote (the equality of the effectiveness of our votes)
> 5. majority rule (essentially required if principle 4 is to be adhered to)
> 6. process transparency in counting the vote
> 7. consequential (results are respected by the government and by the
>     losers - essentially the rule of law and peaceful transfer of power)
>
> I'm completely pig-headed about those seven principles.
>
> Now I would like it if:
>
> 8. the spoiler effect is suppressed
> 9. voters are incentivized to vote sincerely (i.e. we minimize the
> likelihood that any voter is punished for voting sincerely)
> 10. third-party candidates, independent candidates, and fusion candidates
> get a completely level playing field with major party candidates by the
> government in elections
> 11. money had a far lesser effect in elections than it apparently does in
> the U.S.
>
> --
>
> r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj at audioimagination.com
>
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
>
> .
> .
> .
>
> > On 06/26/2025 8:19 PM EDT Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes, they’re remarkably annoying, aren’t they? Though you may not agree
> as you seem to share their commitment to pigheaded stubbornness and
> demonization of people who don’t think exactly like you.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 8:18 PM robert bristow-johnson via
> Election-Methods <election-methods at lists.electorama.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >  > On 06/26/2025 8:07 PM EDT Michael Garman <
> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > > Don’t send anything that could be construed as annoying
> > >  >
> > >  > How much better life would be if you took your own advice.
> > >  >
> > >
> > >  Sometimes speaking (or writing) the truth annoys dishonest, deceived,
> or deluded people.
> > >
> > >  A current example are Trumpers.
> > >
> > >  --
> > >
> > >  r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj at audioimagination.com
> > >
> > >  "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
> > >
> > >  .
> > >  .
> > >  .
> > >
> > >
> > >  > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 6:46 PM robert bristow-johnson via
> Election-Methods <election-methods at lists.electorama.com> wrote:
> > >  > >
> > >  > >
> > >  > > > On 06/26/2025 6:25 PM EDT Closed Limelike Curves <
> closed.limelike.curves at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Could you pass his email along to me and let him know the Equal
> Vote Coalition is interested in talking to him?
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I'll send you, direct, his email address. When you contact him,
> please be sure you use your real identity and not a pseudonym.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Also, we Condorcetists have talked about Equal Vote Coalition.
> We're jealous as hell of the organization name and the domain equal.vote (
> http://equal.vote) (http://equal.vote) . Condorcet deserves that moniker.
> We are more "equality of the vote" than anyone else (other than FPTP).
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Our organization name sucks, in my opinion. But we (the
> Condorcetists) want nothing to do with STAR or Score or Approval. I'm not
> on board with everything that Better Choices are doing. They need to get a
> lot less Ivory Tower. We must not cede to FairVote the term "Ranked-Choice
> Voting" (Condorcet RCV is as much RCV as IRV is, as are also Borda and
> Bucklin).
> > >  > >
> > >  > > And we need to point out what the practical consequences are when
> the "Consensus" candidate (a.k.a. Condorcet winner) is *not* elected with
> IRV. We need to make it clear that when that happens, the election is
> spoiled, voters are punished for voting sincerely (thus incentivizing
> tactical voting), that a simple majority of voters were thwarted and their
> votes were counted *less* per vote than the votes coming from the voters
> who supported the IRV winner. And we also need to make a big stink about
> the loss of summability that comes with IRV.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > CES and EVC both have taken on FairVote a little regarding
> Burlington 2009 and Alaska 2022, but they the only offer Approval or STAR
> as solutions. That ignores the obvious question: "If the failures of IRV in
> Burlington or Alaska were that the Condorcet winner was not elected, then
> why isn't the solution to just elect the Condorcet winner?" They won't
> fucking answer the question, they wanna toss the baby (the ranked ballot)
> out with the bathwater (IRV).
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Anyway, Closed, I thought I used to know your name, but I forgot.
> I will send you Ned's email (I got the emails of the other founders who you
> see on that page at Better Choices), and you can tell him how you got it.
> But don't send him anything that could be construed as annoying. So please
> send him email with your *real* name and not a pseudonym. For as much as I
> know, Ned is getting these emails.
> > >  > >
> > >  > >
> > >  > > --
> > >  > >
> > >  > > r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj at audioimagination.com
> > >  > >
> > >  > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
> > >  > >
> > >  > > .
> > >  > > .
> > >  > > .
> > >  > > ----
> > >  > > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
> for list info
> > >  > >
> > >  ----
> > >  Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
> list info
> > >
> ----
> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
> info
>
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