[EM] No. Condorcet and Hare do not share the same problem with computational complexity and process transparency.

[Michael Garman]

My goodness, you’re disingenuous! Or perhaps you’re ignorant — should I
give you the benefit of the doubt? The Alaska counting delay was due to a
law requiring them to count mail ballots received up to two weeks after the
election. It had nothing to do with IRV!

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:23 PM robert bristow-johnson <
rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On 03/20/2024 2:04 PM EDT Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Also, regarding the Otis interview, here's the transcript (
> https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/03/19/could-ranked-choice-voting-take-the-poison-out-of-politics).
> This is her description of the tabulation process. No lies detected.
> >
>
> My goodness, you're disingenuous.  Or, perhaps, you just don't know what
> you're talking about.  Should I give you that benefit of doubt?
>
> ...
> OTIS: Voters in Alaska will not have to do the strategic voting. They just
> get to ranked honestly. Voters in some other states are going to have to do
> some tough math.
> ...
>
> Problem is that in Alaska in August 2022 and in Burlington Vermont in
> 2009, voters would have to do even tougher math to avoid being burned in
> those two elections.
>
> Voters for the loser in the final round would have avoided causing the
> election of their least favorite candidate by voting tactically.  But
> because they vote sincerely, they got burned.
>
> CHAKRABARTI: What's your best argument for why you think moving to this
> system is better for American democracy?
>
> OTIS: Oh, there are so many reasons. I think the biggest one is just
> getting majority winners.
> ...
>
> That's a lie.  And FV knows it.
>
> CHAKRABARTI: What's your best argument for why you think moving to this
> system is better for American democracy?
>
> OTIS: Oh, there are so many reasons. I think the biggest one is just
> getting majority winners.
> ...
>
> Another lie.
>
> ...
> (OTIS cont.): And ranked choice has been shown to improve representation
> for women and people of color.
> ...
>
> That has also not been shown.  There is no statistical significance that
> shows that RCV other than trends happening in the 21st century has improved
> representation of women and POC.
>
> ...
> OTIS: The ranked choice voting is like an instant runoff. The votes are
> tabulated in a matter of a couple of seconds.
> ...
>
> What's disingenuous here is that, for statewide RCV, it takes ***days***
> to centralize the ballot data before the IRV tabulation can begin.  Alaska
> took 15 days in November 2022.  Maine took 10 days in 2018.
>
> Computers are fast.  Big deal.  But that does not make IRV "Instant".
>
> Without Precinct Summability, we lose a critical part of Process
> Transparency we need to keep some Trumpist election official from "just
> find[ing], uh, 11780, uh votes."  Fortunately Raffensberger was not Jeffery
> Clark.  But if he *was* corrupt, the first thing that prevents a corrupt
> official from padding the numbers is Precinct Summability and the fact that
> polling places had already published the necessary data for us to know how
> the election will turn out.  We have that with FPTP and we lose it with IRV.
>
> ...
> OTIS:  And ranked choice voting is the best way to take the temperature of
> the electorate and elect someone who has the broadest support and can best
> represent the voters.
> ...
>
> Again a falsehood in both Alaska 2022 and Burlington 2009.  And FV is
> aware of it.  The candidate with broadest support (by *any* mathematical
> measure that is not defined by the IRV procedure) in those two elections
> was the candidate eliminated in the semifinal round.
>
>
> --
>
> r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj at audioimagination.com
>
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
>
> .
> .
> .
> ----
> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
> info
>
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