[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

Mon Feb 5 15:25:43 PST 2024

Without any intention of restarting this concluded conversation, I’d like
to fix an omission:

Regarding someone’s claim about being the only ones “out there doing the
work”:

The Center for Electoral Science introduced Approval Voting to 2 cities,
where it was subsequently enacted, & has been in use:

St. Louis MO, & Fargo ND.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:21 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no
> longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>
> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice. That
> wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>
> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the
> wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization,
> & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>
> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been “doing
> the work”.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
>
>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
>> talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>> recommend it :)
>>
>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than
>> “next choice.”
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what FairVote
>>> promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your 2nd-choice.
>>> Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of your
>>> 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>
>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice WINS,
>>> because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your other
>>> choices have lost.
>>>
>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice !!!
>>>
>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>
>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>
>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
>>> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>> resumed doing so.
>>>
>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
>>> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>
>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her for
>>> the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>
>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what FairVote
>>>> promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>>> longer there.
>>>>>
>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a word
>>>>> for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have a
>>>>> word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in your
>>>>>> scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then Best
>>>>>>> gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the Good-supporters
>>>>>>> either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice transfer was to
>>>>>>>  Worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”, when I
>>>>>>> meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] , unless
>>>>>>>>> your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the running.
>>>>>>>>> Which is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language you
>>>>>>>>> cite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, & either
>>>>>>>>> hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers go to
>>>>>>>>> Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2
>>>>>>>>> nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd choice, &
>>>>>>>>> so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice, Worst is elected
>>>>>>>>> !!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice
>>>>>>>>> (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv> and
>>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>> list info
>>>>>
>>>>
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