[EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections
Chris Benham
cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au
Sat Apr 13 13:04:03 PDT 2024
Mike,
You have a great talent for getting the wrong end of the stick.
> , and Mike here is coy on which is the one they're about to vote on.
>
>
> Hopefully we were “about to” vote on a nominated set of methods.
>
Have you noticed that "they" doesn't mean the same thing as "we"?
Quoting you again:
> It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
> the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
> relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
> about to vote on the enactment of.
Could these "voters" you mention be the "they" that I referred to?
Chris
On 14/04/2024 2:46 am, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 04:50 Chris Benham <cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>> It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
>> the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
>> relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
>> about to vote on the enactment of.
>
> "Some voting systems" is a bit vague
>
>
> It’s vague because initially I didn’t know what voting-systems would
> be nominated. :-D
>
> , and Mike here is coy on which is the one they're about to vote on.
>
>
> Hopefully we were “about to” vote on a nominated set of methods.
>
> But maybe you meant that I was coy about what voting system we were
> going to use. No, actually I suggested Schulze, with the understanding
> that of course it would be necessary to choose, if other participants
> suggest different methods.
>
>
>
> I gather it is STAR, but that isn't one of the methods he nominated.
>
>
> You gather very strangely. I suggested Schulze.
>
> …or were you referring to Mike Garman. …an instance where surname
> would have been useful.
>
>
>
> I will be doing quite a bit of equal-ranking, and I think it would
> be good if the poll had more than one
> in first place, and an indication that some others are acceptable
> and a big improvement on FPP,
> so voters and would-be reformers can make their own judgements
> among those on what is and what
> isn't proposable and/or practical.
>
>
> The poll of course would give whatever output-ranking results from the
> voted-rankings.
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005617.html
>> *Michael Ossipoff*email9648742 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
>> /Wed Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024/
>> EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
>> one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
>> states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
>>
>> It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
>> how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
>> some voting-systems.
>>
>> So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
>> of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
>> therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
>> propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
>>
>> It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
>> the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
>> relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
>> about to vote on the enactment of.
>>
>> The voting-method for the poll:
>>
>> It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
>> the people at EM.
>>
>> …& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
>> voting-system, Approval won.
>>
>> Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
>>
>> I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
>> obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
>> usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
>>
>> But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
>>
>> Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
>> count, & an Approval balloting & count.
>>
>> Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
>>
>> Candidate voting-systems:
>>
>> My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
>> …just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
>> a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
>> year.
>>
>> So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
>> make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
>> methods unlikely to win anyway.
>>
>> I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
>> should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
>> wants to nominate.
>>
>> I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
>> alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
>> 1-week nomination-period.
>>
>> I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
>> alternatives among which to vote:
>>
>> Approval
>> RP(wv)
>> Schulze
>> IRV
>>
>> (Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
>> single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
>>
>>
>> Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
>>
>> I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
>> recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
>>
>> After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
>> time as the end of the nomination-period.
>>
>> If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
>> nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
>> words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
>> poll.
>>
>> Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
>> special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
>> enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
>> relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
>> absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
>
>
>
>> On 2024-04-13 07:54, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>> >//>//>/On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 16:05 Kristofer Munsterhjelm : />//>//>>/I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same: />>/"which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking />>/them />>/in preference. />//>>/Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what
>> aspects of />>/the method are most important />//>//>/:-D. “…stays the same”? You’re trying to completely reverse the />/express-purpose & entire fundamental nature of the poll that I
>> proposed. />/It was for informing voters about the EM membership’s
>> social-ranking of />/*proposals for public political elections*. /
>> (Ignore my last message; my computer had a hiccup.)
>>
>> What this shows is that the purpose of the poll wasn't made clear
>> enough. See also Joseph Malkevitch' post, "Purpose of Poll 2".
>>
>> Could you give a link to the post where you first proposed the subject
>> of the poll, before the voting itself started? I'd be happy to just
>> continue with that subject, as long as we stick with it instead of
>> changing it after the voting period has started.
>>
>> In other words, I'm not trying to sneakily change anything, but I would
>> prefer it to stay consistent with what was first proposed.
>>
>> -km
>>
>
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