# [EM] Burlington VT reconsidering IRV 10 years after IRV failed to elect the Condorcet Winner

Toby Pereira tdp201b at yahoo.co.uk
Thu Dec 5 03:57:44 PST 2019

``` I think the biggest problem with Schulze, more than that it is complicated to explain, is that you're basically asking people to take it on trust that it is even a method at all. From the Wikipedia article:
"It can be proven that {\displaystyle p[X,Y]>p[Y,X]} and {\displaystyle p[Y,Z]>p[Z,Y]} together imply {\displaystyle p[X,Z]>p[Z,X]}.[1]:§4.1 Therefore, it is guaranteed (1) that the above definition of "better" really defines a transitive relation and (2) that there is always at least one candidate {\displaystyle D} with {\displaystyle p[D,E]\geq p[E,D]} for every other candidate {\displaystyle E}."
"It can be proven". Well thanks. And also https://rangevoting.org/SchulzeComplic.html
"If the strongest path from L to W, is stronger than, or at least as strong as, the strongest path from W to L, and if this is simultaneously true for every L, then W is a "Schulze winner." Schulze proved the theorem that such a W always exists (at least using "margins"; I am confused re the "winning-votes" enhancement)."

Even less convincing.
I know I'm going a bit off-topic, but what is the estimated probability that Schulze and Ranked Pairs would give a different result in a real-life election? I'd be surprised if it was more than about 1 in 10,000, and where there was a different winner between them, neither winner would be so much obviously the "right" winner that it would cause protests in the streets if the other one were to win.

On Thursday, 5 December 2019, 01:50:13 GMT, robert bristow-johnson <rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:

Lotsa people to respond to.  I feel I must begin with Markus because, as a signal processing algorithmist, I have so much respect for Markus and for the Schulze method.

I think I understand the Schulze beatpath method and agree with the consensus of the geeks that, technically, it is simply the best currently-known RCV method.  Most immune to all of these voting strategies.

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