[EM] hmmm. Maybe I missed something before SF passed IRV then called it RCV?

[Richard Lung]

"* Just FYI, single-winner races are IRV and at-large Park Board and 
Board of Estimate and Taxation races are STV.  RCV is the inclusive name. "

Fair Vote Minnesota conducted an awesome campaign to get that reform.
I think this is the way forward in the USA. They gor rid of George III 
but not monarchism, all those autocratic single member posts from the 
President down, including this group's seeming obsession with single 
member "winners". Democracy and science are about consensus. There 
should be more STV than IRV but it is a start.

Richard Lung.


On 03/07/2017 17:22, Ken B wrote:
> On 7/3/2017 12:50 AM, robert bristow-johnson wrote:
>>
>> > I was thinking of a smaller election, say a mayoral election in
>> > Minneapolis (which we'll have in November). If there's a recount, the
>> > Election folks will need to have all the ballots, not just precinct
>> > totals, at election HQ. And they will because for every election, 
>> after
>> > we transmit the precinct totals downtown, some of us election judges
>> > deliver the paper ballots to two collection sites. Later, all of them
>> > end up at one site.
>>
>> okay.  but the issue regarding precinct summability is one of 
>> election transparency and decentralization and diffusion of 
>> responsibility.  by providing, not as a recount but as a routine 
>> election function, the subtotals for each precinct *at* the precinct 
>> locations, then the media, the various campaigns, and just any other 
>> watchdogs can total up the subtotals themselves.  if the ballot data 
>> is carried from the precincts to the central tabulation location via 
>> a thumbdrive or some physical instrument, there is no double-checking 
>> in the same sense as if the precincts reported their totals at the 
>> precinct location to the media and the public.  people might wonder 
>> if something fishy has happened after the precinct is closed and this 
>> data is opaquely transported from the precinct to the central 
>> tabulation location by whatever means.
>>
>> with IRV, you need to either bring a thumb drive or some physical 
>> instrument (perhaps the voting machine) that has a record of every 
>> single ballot.  it needs that to transfer ballots from one virtual 
>> pile to another when a candidate is eliminated.  the other 
>> possibility is to have subtotals for every possible variation of how 
>> a ballot can be marked.  but the number of piles there grows very 
>> large when the number of candidates increases beyond 4 or 5.  it 
>> would just not be as meaningful for third parties to independently 
>> check and add up those subtotals.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> BTW, i grew up in eastern North Dakota and i know a few folks and 
>> relatives in Mpls/StP.  if i had to live in the midwest, Mpls/StP or 
>> maybe Madison would be where i would want to live.
>>
> = = = = =
> [KB]  This is a more complete description off our process in 
> Minneapolis.  After the poll (precinct) closes, we
>   - transmit electronically the ballot counter's data to Elections HQ.
>   - print copies of the precinct totals of first choices for every 
> race and post one in the precinct entrance for anyone to inspect.
>   - remove the thumb drive with its stored data from the machine and 
> seal it in its own envelope.
>   - remove all the ballots from the counter and seal them in boxes.
>   - complete reports on various activities in the precinct during the 
> voting day (7 am-8 pm).
>
> After we've completed all our paper reports and sealed all the other 
> precinct records, two election judges -- including at least one of the 
> Head Judge or the Asst. Head Judge -- drive the records (including the 
> thumb drive) and ballots to one of two locations where HQ staff check 
> in everything against a checklist of precinct requirements.
>
> HQ has the electronically-sent precinct ballot images and vote totals 
> for each race; the ballot images and vote totals on the precinct 
> ballot counter's thumb drive; and the paper ballots the counter 
> processed.
>
> A recount would use the paper ballots.  I won't swear to it, but I 
> believe in our two RCV* city elections there hasn't been a recount. As 
> I recall, there was a physical count of all paper ballots in 2009 
> before the city got upgraded hardware and software for 2013 (although 
> we're still waiting for software to be certified that'll allow more 
> choices on the ballots).
>   - Ken Bearman, Minneapolis MN
>
>   * Just FYI, single-winner races are IRV and at-large Park Board and 
> Board of Estimate and Taxation races are STV.  RCV is the inclusive name.
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Richard Lung.
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