[EM] (5) APR: Steve's 5th dialogue with Richard Fobes

[Richard Fobes]

To Steve:

I'll try a different approach to pointing out the disadvantages I see in 
your APR voting method.  (Yes, the method also has advantages.)

If I were hired to point out how money could be used to influence a 
government that used your APR method, here are strategies I would recommend:

1: Assuming "you" (the wealthy puppetmaster) own media sources (such as 
radio stations, a TV network, newspapers, etc.), arrange to promote the 
elected politicians whose weighted voting is high and who are willing to 
listen to your advocacy in exchange for campaign contributions.

2: Use the same media ownership to report scandals involving the 
politicians whose weighted voting is high and who have voted against 
what you want.

3: Give campaign contributions to the elected politicians who are the 
chairmen/chairwomen of a committee of importance (to you), and make sure 
that all bills (proposed laws) contain some of what you want, in 
addition to also containing what many voters want.  This strategy 
greatly reduces the influence of a "celebrity" MP (member of Parliament) 
who is not on the committee, and who opposes what you want.  (This 
concept is related to the greatly reduced influence of women in U.S. 
Congress because women have not yet risen into committee chairmanship 
positions.)

4: Contribute money to several of the (seat-wise) most popular 
associations, for the purpose of shifting their agendas at least 
slightly in your direction.  This is similar to what "Republicans" 
started doing in the United States in the 1980s to influence 
Democratic-party candidates during primary elections (without also 
giving much more than token money to Democratic candidates during the 
"general"/runoff election).

5: Get involved in the development process when a promising new 
association forms, especially if the association has lots of voter 
support but not much financial support.  Exactly how this is done 
depends upon information about the APR voting method that has not yet 
been explained.

6: Give donations to churches and other organizations that are willing 
to encourage their members to vote for your financially-backed 
"celebrity" politicians (who are the ones promoted by your media 
sources).  Also give money to people who have ties to drug dealers and 
white-collar criminals, who in turn share some of the money with voters 
who vote for your preferred celebrity politicians.

7: Very importantly, make sure that as many of your financially 
supported politicians get to participate in the negotiation process that 
forms a ruling coalition.  Support those politicians with expert 
negotiators whose hidden agenda is to favor your political interests.

In case you don't recognize the pattern, these strategies -- except for 
numbers 3 and 7 -- take advantage of fairness weaknesses of your APR 
voting method.  The strategies numbered 3 and 7 work in existing voting 
methods, yet they become more effective under the APR voting method.

My purpose in using this approach to point out disadvantages of your 
method is to help you understand the earlier comments that I and others 
have written.

I don't have time to do direct editing on your summary description, but 
I do have specific suggestions for how you can improve it:

* Insert an extra step before the primary election that explains what 
happens before the primary election.  Currently "Step 1" covers both the 
primary election itself and events leading up to the primary.

* Your description does not clarify how a non-seat-holding organization 
without candidates on the ballot can become qualified to have candidates 
on the ballot.  Also it does not clarify what is needed for an 
association to win its first seat.

* Avoid fractions!  The average voter barely understands percentages. 
If you do use percentages, put them in parentheses.  For example you can 
refer to "one representative out of 500 representatives (0.2%)" as a 
threshold criteria.

*Replace the following words with clear and unambiguous words: "contain 
all citizens as their voting members"

*Replace the following words ...: "proved not to be sufficiently popular"

*Replace the following words ...: "if it has attracted at least one 
500-th of all the registered voters as its official electors"

* Remove the unneeded words: "would retain all the votes they had 
received. Thus each"

* Remove the goals and judgments that you continue to re-insert into 
your descriptions.  Just state the facts.  If this request isn't yet 
clear, assume that a computer programmer needs to read your description 
and then be able to write software that implements your method.

When you have revised your summary description, please post it for 
further feedback on this forum.  I'm guessing that as your description 
becomes clearer, then feedback from myself and others will become more 
useful to you.

Your APR voting method does have some interesting advantages in spite of 
its disadvantages.  As I've said before, it might be useful for use in 
some organizations.

Richard Fobes

On 12/28/2014 4:56 AM, steve bosworth wrote:
> ...
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Thank you for being willing to spend the time to start the writing of a
> more simple presentation of APR.I would also be grateful if you and
> others could offer any more criticisms and suggestions in regard to the
> additions I have made below in an attempt to complete your summary with
> equal simplicity.Your original suggestions are printed using Courier New
> Font, while my additions use Calibri Font:
>
> *Positive Voting Guaranteed*
>
> If you would like to be sure that your own vote will continue to have
> equal weight in the legislative assembly through the rep you trust most,
> use Associational Proportional Representation (APR).
>
> Step 1: APR’sPrimary election allows you to choose which voluntary
> organization you want to help you make your vote count more efficiently
> during the later general election.You choose from the list of applicant
> organizations who wish to send their own reps to the legislative
> assembly.These would probably include all the political parties, many of
> the existing electoral districts, and many interest groups (e.g.
> business, labor, professional, social, environmental, recreational,
> ethnic, or religious).You may rank as many, or as few, of these
> organizations as you wish. Rank first the one you believe is likely to
> offer the most attractive candidates for you to rank during the later
> election.
>
> The Primary counts all these citizen preferences to discover the group
> of organizations who are sufficiently popular both to contain all
> citizens as their voting members and to elect all the reps during the
> general election.Each organization in this group becomes an official
> electoral “associations”.Also as a result, you (and each other citizen)
> become a voting member of one of these associations for the general
> election.
>
> If a citizen’s first choice organization proved not to be sufficiently
> popular, his application to be a member will be shifted to his next
> choice organization until one is found to be sufficiently popular to
> become an association.If a citizenprefersnot to participate in the
> Primary ornot to rank any association beyond their favorite, that too is
> acceptable. If none of the organizations a citizen has ranked proves
> sufficiently popular, they will automatically remain a registered voter
> in the district in which they reside.
>
> Step 2: Counting the primary election ballots also determines how many
> legislative seats will be awarded to each association.If, for example,
> the legislative assembly is to have 500 members, an association will be
> awarded one seat if it has attracted at least one 500^th of all the
> registered voters as its official electors.It will be awarded two seats
> if it as attracted two 500^th , etc.(See Endnote 5 and Flow Chart 2 in
> the article).
>
> Step 3: In the general election, you (and each citizen) is asked to vote
> by rankingas many, or as few, candidates as they prefer. The ballot
> paper is designed to allow each voter easilyto rank any candidates in
> any associations in the country.
>
> Step 4: Counting these ballots determineswhich candidates win the seats
> that were awarded to eachassociation. For example, the candidate who
> received the most votes in an association allowed to elect 1 rep would
> be elected, the two candidates receiving the most votes in an
> association allowed to elect 2 reps would be elected, etc.
>
> Step 5:Each elected rep would retain all the votes they had
> received.Thus, each will have a “weighted vote” in the assembly exactly
> equal to the number of votes received.In this way, each citizen’s vote
> continues to count during the assembly’s deliberations (see the Sample
> Ballot, Endnotes 3 & 4, and Flow Chart 1 in the article).
>
> END OF SUMMARY
>
> R: Notice that, unlike your descriptions, this sample summary does not
> contain any claims, opinions, judgments, or even intended goals. You
> already know how to write that kind of promotional material.
>>
>>  After it becomes clearer how your method works, then we can further
> discuss the strengths and weaknesses of your method.
>
> S: Yes please.
>
> R:In case I forget, your method involves an additional complication that
> I have not yet mentioned. The fact that seats would be awarded to many
> associations means that a ruling/majority coalition would need to be
> formed, and the process of forming a coalition always involves back-room
> compromises that undermine the most important political priorities of
> many voters. The long-term solution to this issue is to improve the
> voting methods that are used within the legislature/parliament, and then
> your associations would not need to form a ruling coalition.
>>
>>  Richard Fobes
>
> S:I look forward to our future dialogues both with regard to the
> formation of a “majority coalition” and the above summary.
>
> S:My reply with regard to your above remarks about the formation of a
> “majority coalition” will be contained in the 6^th edition of our
> dialogue which I will sent next.
>
> Steve