[EM] Declaration ... - political-party & direct-participation side issues

[Richard Fobes]

On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote:
 > ...
 > I'd like to know that each step recommended on the Electoral Methods
 > site is a move toward greater democracy, but I'm not sure others agree.
 > There seems to be greater interest in solidifying the role of political
 > parties in the electoral infrastructure than in improving public
 > participation in the political process.
 > ...

The Declaration loosens, rather than tightens, the grip that political 
parties now have on politics. Completely releasing that grip comes 
later. (One step at a time...)

I agree that aspiring to lofty goals is, for lack of a better way to say 
it, a good goal.  It's what I've always tried to do.

As for promoting direct public participation in the political process, 
first we have to develop election-method "tools" that support such 
participation.  I've done a prototype of an early kind of such a tool at 
www.NegotiationTool.com, although first the approach needs to be learned 
in smaller groups before it can be scaled up to reach the long-term goal 
of direct, citizen-based participation in government. Surely that's a 
lofty goal.

 > ... I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods
 > is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. ...

I don't know what that sentence means.

 > ... However much I'd like to
 > see movement toward more democratic electoral systems, I recognize that
 > progress must be slow and incremental. ...

I disagree. We don't have to move slowly. And the Declaration will 
dramatically speed up "movement toward more democratic electoral systems".

Speeding things up is what will enable us to sooner reach our shared 
lofty goal of eventual direct-participation democracy -- without the 
currently necessary "evil" of political parties.

We agree that we need to take one step at a time, yet I see no reason 
that we have to take those steps sssooo ssslllooowwwlllyyy.  This is the 
year 2011 and we're still using plurality voting in U.S. elections?

Richard Fobes


On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote:
> Good Afternoon, Richard
>
> I absolutely agree - we must crawl before we can walk. However, since we
> are not babies, perhaps our position is more analogous to wriggling out
> of a cesspool. To do that, it's best to have an idea of where we want to
> go so we don't flounder around in it longer than necessary.
>
> In thinking about how to respond to your note, I kept coming back to a
> thought that seemed important, so I looked it up:
>
> "Keep thine eye upon the prize; be sure that thy eyes be
> continually upon the profit thou art like to get. The
> reason why men are so apt to faint in their race for
> heaven, it lieth chiefly in either of these two things:
>
> 1. They do not seriously consider the worth of the prize;
> or else if they do, they are afraid it is too good for
> them; ...
>
> 2. And do not let the thoughts of the rareness of the
> place make thee say in thy heart, This is too good
> for me; ..."
> John Bunyan, 1698
>
> I was surprised to learn this thought's religious overtones (I would
> have guessed John Bunyan was Paul Bunyan's dad), so I must beg the
> indulgence of those whose minds close at the first hint of religiosity.
> The quality of an idea should be independent of its source. I must have
> thought this one worthy, for I kept it in the back of my mind long after
> I lost my awe of religion.
>
> I think it's important for people proposing Electoral Methods to know
> (and agree upon) the prize they seek - and not lose sight of it. I fear
> I've failed to make that point. I have no problem with the
> 'Declaration'. I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods
> is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. However much I'd like to
> see movement toward more democratic electoral systems, I recognize that
> progress must be slow and incremental. Even Bunyan didn't expect to
> reach his prize during his lifetime.
>
> The purpose of the August 24th suggestion of listing fundamental
> principles was intended, not to define the 'Declaration', but to ensure
> that participants in the discussion had the same goal.
>
> I'd like to know that each step recommended on the Electoral Methods
> site is a move toward greater democracy, but I'm not sure others agree.
> There seems to be greater interest in solidifying the role of political
> parties in the electoral infrastructure than in improving public
> participation in the political process.
>
> Wouldn't it be a good idea to acknowledge that we don't need more of the
> poison that's making us so sick?
>
> Fred Gohlke
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>
>
>