[EM] language/framing quibble

Juho Laatu juho4880 at yahoo.co.uk
Wed Mar 25 15:00:38 PDT 2009

--- On Wed, 25/3/09, Fred Gohlke <fredgohlke at verizon.net> wrote:

> http://www.wallstreetwatch.org/soldoutreport.htm
> It describes how the financial sector bribed our
> representatives to produce the monstrosity that now engulfs
> us.  The article provides a link to the full report (a
> 3MB document).  Possibly the greater horror is how that
> bribery is now protecting the guilty and preventing
> imposition of the controls the situation so urgently
> demands.

Yes, I'd encourage maintaining some
separation of the political and
business segments of the society.

> The only guarantee that 'the best expertise is available at
> the top' is empowering the entire electorate.  There is
> no other way to avoid bypassing potential leaders.

The triads and other low level
approaches may do good job in at
least waking up some potential
leaders.. It is however not
guaranteed that they or other
competent people will end up
at the top.

> re: "In the end it is us who think that money and good
> position
>      in the current hierarchical system
> are more important than
>      other values, i.e. it is not those
> few at the top of the
>      hierarchy but the whole pack that
> sets the targets and
>      rewards and appreciates the
> current value system and model
>      of behaviour.
>      Well, in order not to be too
> pessimistic I note that I do
>      believe that people are quite fast
> in adopting new habits
>      when they are explained well
> enough so that they can see the
>      benefits and that the proposed new
> model indeed works."
> You're right.  That's why my most fervent hope is that
> a few young people will consider the concepts we discuss
> here and mold them into a better political system.  I
> anticipate the process will take 200 years, but the period
> could be shortened considerably by people adept at
> illuminating the flaws of partisan politics.  A student
> with the perception to understand the causes of our
> political failures and the talent to publicize a more
> democratic method in a compelling manner will achieve a
> breakthrough ... not in my lifetime, certainly, but it will
> happen.

It is difficult to forecast
the time that the reforms take.
Already the current downturn of
the U.S. economy could lead to
some smaller changes, although
I doubt that. Sometimes the
systems need to go quite low
before making the required

Young people are an everlasting
source of idealism and energy.
I would welcome involvement of
all generations to avoid too
simplified ideologies to take
the lead and fail.

> re: "The world of electoral reforms is an interesting one.
>      People try to promote complex
> mechanical systems, to be used
>      by all, to influence the roots of
> our political systems, to
>      reduce the number and seriousness
> of political conflict
>      situations, and quite often at the
> same time fight against
>      the other reform proposals"
> Some of this may be pride of authorship, but some of it is
> also a matter of immediacy.  In my case, I'm more
> concerned about finding ways to harness our own nature

Yes, the path from the laws of
jungle to some better and better
working systems is very much
about understanding and
harnessing our own nature.

> than
> I am with more immediately pressing political
> concerns.  As I told a strong advocate of proportional
> representation (which, by definition, implies a partisan
> system)

Partisan system is not quite
mandatory in PR since PR-STV can
operate also without parties. In
practice all political systems
have some groupings/parties

> , I heartily applaud his efforts.  He is
> directing his attention to correcting a serious flaw in
> partisan systems, the tendency toward two-party
> dominance.  While I agree with what he is doing, there
> are others who share his goals to help him.  So, rather
> than dilute my own efforts, I focus on the more fundamental
> question of "Why humans shoot themselves in the foot,
> politically, and how can we harness the tendencies that
> produce that result?"

I have also spent some time in
thinking how we could make the
party structure more dynamic
and having more variation than
few monolithic blocks with
established power structure
do offer. Since some kind of
grouping of people and
ideologies is likely we better
have means to heard them.



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