[EM] Time of trouble? Or put a lid on it?

[Juho Laatu]

--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Michael Allan <mike at zelea.com> wrote:

> Juho Laatu wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure that inequality would be a
> > requirement. Full equality in terms of
> > wealth and power is impossible to achieve,
> > but we can approximate that at some
> > agreed/suitable level (e.g. by balancing
> > the differences a bit where needed) - and
> > still keep the natural competitive forces
> > alive as the forward driving force in the
> > society (and its economy).
> 
> So the realm of possiblity may contain mechanisms to
> correct the gross
> inequalities of opportunity etc. that divide class from
> class, and
> nation from nation.  You and I can discuss this possiblity
> in abstract
> terms, like "cultured gentleman".^[1] But what is
> the path from
> possiblity to actuality? 

Many mechanisms are already in place (both
in "public sphere" and more officially).
In many ways we are already in phases 7
and 8 (see below).

> And what are the danger points
> along the
> way?
> 
>   1. A voting system is instituted in the public sphere,
> thus lifting
>      the lid of the pot.
> 
>      People are free to express themselves on issues of
> gross
>      disparity, to be heard, and to build consensus.  The
> inter-class

Some societies have clear classes
(inherited or culturally separate), but
there are also lesser deviations, and
there are differences between individuals
of otherwise homogeneous groups.

>      and inter-national tensions that were formerly
> suppressed and
>      suspended

Or simply in worse position, maybe due to
recent changes, and maybe without any
suppression.

> are thus thematized in discussion and
> floated for
>      political action. 

Or the society as a whole decides to
discuss and then act for the benefit
of all.

> What shall the action be?  Everyone
> is
>      talking, voting...
> 
>   2. Stuff happens.

To me the most interesting part here
might be the formation of widely
shared concepts and understanding.

> 
>   3. Eventually reason prevails.  The dwellers in the
> favelas and the
>      peasents in the villages (despite long suppressed
> bitterness and
>      anger)

No need to be suppressed nor angry. Some
may be but better results could be
achieved if everyone just understands how
the system might benefit better all its
members.

> enter into a more-or-less rational discussion
> with the
>      weathly entrepreneurs and landowners.

Maybe all should discuss more. In most
democratic societies all have had the
opportunity for a long time now.
Involvement and understanding of all
segments of the society is needed. Also
the rich and powerful may have lost
touch and may also benefit of the new
ideas.

> 
>   4. A promising "disparity correction" mechanism
> is discovered, and
>      talked about.

Or old ones used as they are, or they are
balanced in order to respond better to
the needs.

> 
>   5. A rough consensus emerges that, yes, this is the very
> mechanism
>      we want.
> 
>   6. Political action follows.  The mechanism is emplaced.
> 
>   7. It fails.

Continuously - at least there is the risk
of continuous erosion.

> 
>   8. Stuff happens.

Hopefully already in step 7 and earlier.
I'd like to see a system that includes
both practical implementation and
theoretical consensus targets above the
practical level. This makes it easier to
adjust the system on the fly (without
going from one disaster to decision,
frozen positions and next disaster).
Politics are too often just bottom level
tug-of-war type activities where
decisions are made based on who is
strongest at this very moment.

> 
> Steps 2 and 8 are problematic.  What kind of stuff can
> happen?

I tried to emphasize the need to generate
consensus models that allow high level
principles to be implemented and adjusted
using some practical mechanisms. That'd
be better than revolutions and the
tug-of-war game.

> 
> 
> [1] In Bertrand Russell's History of Western
> Philosophy, in the
>     chapter on Aristotle's Politics, the last few
> paragraphs frame a
>     broad context for discussing the extremes of democracy,
> reaction
>     and counter-reaction.
> 
>    
> http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ey94E3sOMA0C&pg=PA187#PPA187,M1
> 
>     That's p. 187, which contains the text
> "Aristotle's fundamental
>     assumptions... the rise of industrialism... Both for
> good and
>     evil, therefore, the day of the cultured gentleman is
> past."

Yes, quite interesting section.

- I always appreciate the courage to say
that the highest achievements / acme are
not here, now or in the future.

- Democracy in Athens was a democracy of
the top level of the society. That
allowed a stronger "cultured gentlemen"
approach than the modern approach that
serves all and where the highest decision
making and consumption potential is quite
low in the society (=> "populism" in both
politics and consumption).

- With the "strength of the masses" the
modern (post 18th century) society with
high number of rich and independent
consumers (= commercial decision makers,
often with less political interest) (I
mean, what the society in rich countries
is now after the turmoil of industrial
revolution and related extreme capitalism
and socialism) is just a bit more complex
to control than the old and simpler
"cultured gentlemen" approach. One must
take a positive approach and trust that
we find good ways forward.

- From [EM] point of view the new society
may also need richer forms of
participation. The public sphere may be
used. But also the very traditional
political decision making system needs
new better approaches. I expect the
combination of useful mechanisms (voting,
discussion, administration,...) and
better consensus based models of the
world to work best.

- When writing the book Russell (probably)
didn't see yet the collision of the human
society and the limits of the global
resources. That's another challenge that
impacts the evolution of the (culture of
the) society in addition to the ones that
Russell lists, maybe the biggest recent
one (?).

Juho


> 
> -- 
> Michael Allan
> 
> Toronto, 647-436-4521
> http://zelea.com/
> 
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