[EM] sortition/random legislature Was: Re: language/framing quibble

[Aaron Armitage]

You sound a little bit like an impatient know-it-all yourself.

I already addressed Athens, but to repeat: the central institution of
Athenian democracy was not chosen by sortition but was self-selected. You
might also consider the generals more carefully. If you're concerned about
individuals acquiring arbitrary power, the generals are the people you
should be most worried about. But the people of Athens made sure they kept
control over who would be chosen.


--- On Thu, 9/11/08, Ralph Suter <RLSuter at aol.com> wrote:

> From: Ralph Suter <RLSuter at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [EM] sortition/random legislature Was: Re: language/framing quibble
> To: election-methods at lists.electorama.com
> Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:46 AM
> Aaron Armitage wrote:
> 
>  > I don't think I expressed my point clearly
> enough: I consider that
>  > making the public the active agents in their own
> governance is a
>  > very major benefit of popular government. THE
> benefit, in fact.
>  > Increasing the percentage of majority policy
> preferences enacted, in
>  > such a way as to make the people passive consumers of
> policy rather
>  > than at least potentially the producers forfeits the
> reason for
>  > having popular government. Managing your own affairs
> is for adults;
>  > having your desires catered to without effort on your
> part is for
>  > spoiled children.
> 
> Spoken just like an impatient know-it-all father would
> speak to his 
> own ignorant and "spoiled" children.
> 
> The pretty obvious truth is that you (as well as several
> other people 
> on this list who have addressed the issue) have barely
> begun to think 
> carefully about sortition and its relevance to democracy.
> Sortition is 
> not only an appropriate means but probably the single best
> means for 
> choosing some kinds of representatives, though not all
> kinds. The 
> ancient Athenians, who chose many of their public officials
> by 
> sortition (but not their generals), understood that a lot
> better than 
> most people do today, including most political scientists.
> 
> One thing they particularly understood is that democracy
> ("rule of and 
> by the people") requires not only empowering people of
> all kinds 
> (though of course the Athenians excluded women and slaves)
> but also 
> preventing people from gaining arbitrary power that they
> are then able 
> to wield in undemocratic ways. Sortition is a much better
> way to 
> achieve that goal than voting, which can be manipulated in
> all kinds 
> of ways by clever and deceitful people (especially wealthy
> ones).
> 
> Another thing the Athenians understood is that soritition
> does not, 
> contrary to your unsupported assertion, prevent or
> discourage the 
> public from becoming "active agents in their own
> governance." To the 
> contrary, by greatly expanding the number of people who
> gain direct 
> experience in governance, sortition can encourage public
> participation 
> much more than can elections - especially the kinds of
> highly 
> manipulated elections that are now so commonplace in the
> U.S. and many 
> other so-called "democracies" around the world.
> 
> Before doing any more pontificating about sortition and
> democracy, I 
> wish you would take a little time to seriously study it. A
> good place 
> to start is a book by two Australian academics:
> "Random Selection in 
> Politics" by Lyn Carson and Brian Martin, Praeger
> 1999. It's a 
> ridiculously expensive book, but you can read it online at:
> 
> http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=15275891
> 
> -Ralph Suter
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