[EM] Democrat-Dumping

[MIKE OSSIPOFF]

I'd said:

>
>There's been some discussion of using vote-witholding as a stick to
>influence the Democrats. I said that the Democrats aren't reformable, and
so
>the goal should instead be to replace them. How would that work,
>with our current Plurality elections?:

Elizabeth & Christopher Dicely replied:


Poorly, clearly.

I reply:

I didn't mean "How well will it work?". I meant "How will it happen?".

You can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. Obviously the initial
stage, the Democrat-Dumping stage, will look to many like a loss.
But you shouldn't assume that electing Republicans is the final result,
though it's what happens at first.

Elizabeth and Christopher continued:


"Democrat dumping" aids the Republicans without providing
any additional
public credibility to third parties


I reply:

I'd have to disagree there. It shows that the people who want something
genuinely progressive and different from the Republocrats are numerous
now, and that Democrat-preferrers are no longer numerous enough to
elect Democrats. I'm not sure what you mean by "credibility".


You continue:


(and Republican-dumping has the same
effect in reverse). It
might get the dumped major party to shift toward the "protest" group (if it
has a coherent
platform) in hopes of pre-emption


I reply:

Yes, it will show the people who prefer Nader, but vote Dem as a
lesser-evil that there's no further point in doing so. If they're going
to vote for someone who is perceived as unlikely to win, it might as
well be someone they actually like.

The first stage of accomplishement is when the Dems lose because
they've lost lesser-of-2-evils votes from Nader-preferrers. We've
achieved that now. (Though Gore was actually the winner of the 2000
count, the close result was because of his losing LO2E votes to Nader).

The next stage is when Nader or someone like him outpolls the Republican.

You continued:


, in the next election cycle; OTOH, it's
got just as much
likelihood to drive them toward the other major party to try to get more of
the vast number
of centrist

I reply:

Who has shown that the "center" is really somwhere between the Dem
and the Repub?  I suggest that the voter median is away from the Dem,
in the direction away from the Repub. Noam Chomsky has often pointed
out that the American people have consistently been more progressive
and humane than their leaders, whether the "leaders" are Dem or Repub.

You continue:

voters that are convinced that the two major parties are the
only viable options
under the current electoral system.


I reply:

But that's just it: If we do as I've suggested, the Dem party and
candidates will no longer be a viable option. Maybe the LO2E voters
will consider honest sincere voting as an equally viable option.

But now I realize that you're talking about how vote-withdrawal will
effect the Dem party. Who cares? I've said that they aren't reformable
anyway. Sure, if they're sure they've lost their LO2E voters, they
might, as you suggested, try harder for those who are torn between
Repub & Dem. Let them. We already have 2 Republican parties, so what
would be the difference?

You continued:

Of course, the Nader effect should show supporters of any reasonable
preference (or approval)
voting system that fighting the Democrats isn't a productive pursuit --
instead, you ought to be
selling the Democrats on the benefits to the Democratic party of not having,
for instance,
Green votes be effectively Republican votes. Get a major party behind a
sensible voting system
out of rational self-interest, and the pursuit becomes much less quixotic.


I reply:

The financial owners of the Republocrats don't want a better voting
system because it would free people to express their preference for
someone else. But there are instances, such as Alaska, where a
Republocrat organization tries for a different voting system, and
so maybe such an approach can have some degree of success.


Mike Ossipoff





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