MMP vs STV

[New Democracy]

  -------- Forwarded Message --------
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:15:29 EDT
To: donald at mich.com,
Subject: Re: MMP vs STV
                                           [correction]
In a message dated 22/08/98 09:24:33 GMT,  [Phil Saxby] writes:

<<  STV imposes a higher natural threshold than in any list
 system - unless the number of members per constituency is very large - and
 it is common for small parties to be underrepresented.  What happens in STV
 is that some political conflict must take place within parties which in a
 more open system (open to new parties, offering more voter choice) would
 take place between different parties.  Certainly STV is far better than a
 FPP or single-member preferential vote for opening up diversity and being
 fair to voters.  But list systems are better, and the lower the threshold,
 the fairer and the more diversity.
  >>

Owen disagrees:-
Of course it is true that with fewer seats there must be less proportionality
within a given constituency.  However, there will be many constituencies so
that minor parties which fail to get the quota in one will likely get in
somewhere else.   Even with FPTP, some minority parties do get into the
legislature by being popular in some local areas.   Over a whole legislature,
the effective national quota equivalent will be very much less than the one-
constituency quota.

The question is whether strict proportionality is so important that other
considerations such as voter preference and local ties must be ignored.   We
often hear complaints about "party" politics being remote from the people.
It seems to me very desirable to limit the power of the party machines and
increase the responsibility of elected members to their own electorate rather
than to their parties.   Even the best list systems fail to do this.   And the
disproportionality within the whole legislature will probably be negligible in
practice.  Therefore I consider that Preference Voting in multi-member
constituencies using the Single Transferable Vote is far and away the best
system for electing a legislature.

Owen Dumpleton,   Washington, UK.
****
Dear Owen,

You wrote: "Of course it is true that with fewer seats there must be less
proportionality within a given constituency.  However, there will be many
constituencies so that minor parties which fail to get the quota in one
will likely get in somewhere else."

Don D writes: Maybe - maybe not.  In any event the party will not get its
just representation.

Owen wrote: "Over a whole legislature, the effective national quota
equivalent will be very much less than the one- constituency quota."

Don D writes: What do you mean by "effective national quota equivalent"?
And, are any members elected by this quota? If not then why talk about it?
If you mean national votes divided by members, this national quota would be
very much larger - not less.

     An example will help us to understand:  Suppose 12 million votes
spread evenly over 100 districts(constituencies) of three members each
using STV and Droop quota. This yields us a Droop Quota of 30,000 in each
district.

    Question: What is the value of the "effective National Quota equivalent"?

     Until you clear this up I am inclined to think that your statement is
misinformation intended to make us think the issue is not as bad.

Owen wrote: "And the disproportionality within the whole legislature will
probably be negligible in practice."

Don D writes: Not True! - but even if only one seat is in question, that
will mean that one candidate was denied his seat and one quota of the
voters lost their representaion. How much wrong are you willing to accept?

Owen wrote: "Therefore I consider that Preference Voting in multi-member
constituencies using the Single Transferable Vote is far and away the best
system for electing a legislature."

Don D writes: I will agree if we were to use the Hare Quota and add MMP.
Yes, I said ADD.  STV and MMP combined is a better system than either one
by itself. The issue should not be STV vs MMP. The issue should be STV plus
MMP vs STV or MMP alone.

Regards,
Donald D


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