[EM] RE: BC & PR

[DEMOREP1 at aol.com]

SB wrote in part-

Thanks for your informative comments on Hilter's rise. I am learning as we go.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the German PR system based on the
PLURALITY of votes received by each party, where the ballot listed the parties
rather than the individual candidates?

---
D- I *believe* the 1919 Germany (Weimer) Constitution ONLY specified that 
some sort of p.r. was to be used.  The details were all statutory (subject to 
machinations).  I *believe* a form of party list p.r. was used ---

party seats = total seats x party votes
                      ----------------------------
                               total votes

The nazis NEVER got a majority of the votes or seats in any of the 1919-1932 
p.r. elections for the German Parliament (Reichstag).

Backing up -- the genetic lunacy of Kaiser Wilhelm II helped cause World War 
I in 1914.

Germany in 1919 was devastated due to the horrific World War I (and the 
collapse in Nov. 1918 of the monarchy/ oligarchy killers that had waged such 
war).

P.R. had been used in various other nations in Europe to get *real* 
representation of various groups in such nations -- especially in Norway and 
Sweden  - I *believe*.

If anything -- I would suggest it was the parliamentary regime form of 
government (mixed legislative and executive powers in the same persons) that 
caused the various problems in Germany in 1919-1933 (greatly compounded by 
the insane demands of the French government for huge war damage payments from 
the young and very fragile *democratic* German government -- producing things 
like the super- super - hyper inflation in Germany in 1922-1923 -- i.e. the 
economic destruction of the German middle class).

There likely are some short histories of Germany on the internet with more 
details of German politics in 1918-1933.

Hitler and his nazi gang used all the loopholes in the 1919 German 
Constitution to destroy Democracy in Germany in 1933-1934 which was revived 
in West Germany after World War II (1939-1945) with its MMP p.r. system in 
1949 -- with the result that German politics has been rather calm since then 
-- moderate leftwing/ rightwing governments come and go peacefully.
--------
For more info about proportional representation, see --

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/polit/damy/prlib.htm

A source of information on proportional representation elections -- 
including beginning readings, in-depth articles by scholars and 
activists, an extensive bibliography, and a guide to related Web sites. 
----
See also Prof. Amy's new book--

Behind the Ballot Box 
A Citizen's Guide to Voting Systems 
By Douglas J. Amy 
Praeger Paperback. Westport, Conn. 2000. 248 pages 
LC 00-029841. ISBN 0-275-96586-4. B6586 $19.95 
Available (Status Information Updated 4/26/2001) 
A cloth bound edition is available: 0-275-96585-6, $65.00 

** Table of Contents **

-- Preface 
-- Introduction 
-- What Are Voting Systems and Why Are They Important? 
-- Criteria for Evaluating Voting Systems 
-- Plurality-Majority Voting Systems 
-- Proportional Representation Voting Systems 
-- Semi-Proportional Voting Systems 
-- Voting Systems for Single-Office Elections 
-- Making Your Final Choice 
-- Appendixes 
-- Selected Bibliography 
-- Index 

** Author **

DOUGLAS J. AMY is Professor of Politics at Mount Holyoke College  [in MA]

Greenwood Publishing Group
88 Post Road West
Westport CT 06881
(203) 226-3571

FFFrom election-methods-list-request at eskimo.com  Thu Mar 28 20:44:26 2002
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Subject: RE: How to vote in Approval
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>> From: "Alex Small" <asmall at physics.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: Re:[EM] How to vote in Approval


Perhaps I've missed it, since I don't read every message, but
has anyone come up with a method of automatically converting
orderings to an approval ballots in decent enough fashion to
make it feasible in an election?  The reason I ask is because
ordering would be an easier task for most people than
choosing where to put the cutoff between approved and
disapproved.


>> I agree with David that the question "How bad is too bad?"
>> can be difficult.  In 2000 my lesser evil was Harry Browne
>> (I'm a very soft-core Libertarian, hence I call Browne the
>> lesser evil rather than the greater good, but I digress),
>> but I thought Gore was better than Bush.  The question of
>> whether Gore is still OK would be tough.

>> If I phrase the question in terms of regret, I can ask
>> which I would regret more:  Bush winning instead of Gore,
>> or Gore winning instead of Browne. Because I consider Bush
>> and Gore to be largely the same on many issues, the regret
>> in the first case would be greater than the regret in the
>> second case, so I'd only vote for Browne.

>> On the other hand, in a race between John McCain, Jesse
>> Ventura, and Al Gore, I see a large gap between Gore (3rd
>> choice) and McCain (2nd choice), but a somewhat smaller
>> gap between McCain and Ventura (1st choice).  Hence I'd
>> vote for both McCain and Ventura, assuming it was a tight
>> 3-way race.

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From: Anthony Simmons <bbadonov at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: IRV in Australia (was How to Vote in Approval)
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>> From: Alex Small <asmall at physics.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: [EM] IRV in Australia (was How to Vote in Approval)

>> I poked around on the web site of the Australian
>> Parliament (www.aph.gov.au).  The House of Representatives
>> (elected from single-member constituencies with IRV) has 2
>> main parties, a handful of independents, and a handful of
>> people from one other party.  The Senate, elected by PR,
>> has 7 parties and a couple independents (although some
>> parties only have one or two members).  I don't know the
>> PR method used.

A better place to look might be the Australian Electoral
Commission.  I know they've published something about the
problems with IRV, and as I recall, include at least one
example.  But it was a while back, and I don't recall it too
clearly.  A starting place:

   http://www.aec.gov.au/pubs/electoral_systems.htm

>> Alex

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From: DEMOREP1 at aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:41:39 EST
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Forest wrote in part-

Since most people cannot be trusted to print machine readable numerals,
there should be a supply of numerals printed on stickers for applying to
the blanks of this type of ballot (for use with CR or Ranking).

---
D- The folks in San Francisco have just indicated that they will be (like it 
or not) be using IRV which uses Number Votes (1, 2, etc.) 

I presume that the voting devices at the polls will have number votes using 
keyboards and/or mouse clicks.

There may be a major problem with absentee votes using number votes (due to 
the terrible handwriting/ lettering of many folks these days) (if voters -- 
especially old folks -- have to write in the number for each choice).

Likely result- more lawsuits in the courts.  What else is new ???