[EM] 12/22/02 - Markus Schulze Wrote and Wrote again:

[Adam Tarr]

Markus, very good points.  You've convinced me that party list in any form 
has significant weaknesses.  What do you think of my last comment, about 
the advantages of PAV over STV?  I'd say the main advantages are twofold:

- voting in PAV is unquestionably easier than STV.  For this reason, one 
could make larger districts (perhaps 7 or 8 candidate districts) without 
making the election too confusing for the voter.  In large district STV 
elections in Australia, 95% of the voters vote for pre-determined party 
orders, which basically makes STV degenerate into closed party list.

- I'd argue that, when it comes down to allocating the last few candidates, 
PAV does a better job of picking the right candidates than STV.  At the 
one-candidate extreme, it's a matter of comparing approval voting to IRV.

-Adam

>Germany uses MMP; since 1953, no independent candidate has been
>elected to the German Bundestag. Ireland uses STV in 3- to 5-seat
>districts; in average, 5 of the ca. 160 MPs are independents.
>
>Adam wrote (23 Dec 2002):
> > In open list PR, candidates don't have to play nice to move up
> > the list, since the voters decide which candidates on the list
> > get elected.
>
>When you don't play nice you won't even get on the list.
>
>Adam wrote (23 Dec 2002):
> > Also, in theory one could run as an independent in list PR,
> > although it's unlikely that a single candidate would break the
> > quota.
>
>In STV, a dissident candidate takes away from his home party
>only as many votes as he needs to get elected. If this dissident
>candidate doesn't get elected, then he doesn't take away any votes
>at all. In so far as dissident candidates (when they are re-elected)
>usually rejoin their home party, dissident candidates don't hurt
>their home party at all. Therefore, the whole society is more
>tolerant to dissidents in STV than in list PR.
>
>Markus Schulze
>
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